LNER branchline passenger stock

[watcheronthebridge]

Of course if, by some miracle the GN section did manage to hang on to its ancient six-wheelers in service trains there should be firmly dated photographs to prove it.

The RCTS Photographic Archive has this photograph http://www.rcts.org.uk/features/archive ... rch=&page= of "...GNR 6-wheel coaches in use as breakdown train unit at Boston MP No. DE 941522 (possibly ex 1st cl and DE 941523 ex passenger brake van 10/3/63".

[strang steel]

There is a colour photo of that breakdown train at Boston in "Eastern Steam In Colour", which was one of the original landscape format albums published by Janes, before the idea was taken up by Ian Allan.

[manna]

G'Day Gents

While trawling through some of my pictures, I found this, I'm not sure if there ex 6 wheelers or ex ridged 8 wheelers, but these are in the London suburbs, probably early to mid 30's.

I have another pic showing 4 wheelers at Edgware in 1925

manna

[strang steel]

I seem to remember reading in a magazine that some ex-NLR six wheelers went to the S Wales coalfield and were used on miners train services at least into the early 1950s.

[Andy W]

I had a look at those pictures of Lincoln in 1959 and I think those six wheelers are in departmental use. They seem to be behind a (rubbish?) wagon on a road beside a rake of coaches with a gas tank wagon on a short road on the other side of them and although they look nice and tight, I would be very surprised if they were capital stock by that late stage.

[john coffin]

the two carriages at mill hill look like ex rigid 8 wheelers.
Paul

[john coffin]

having looked carefully at the research I have done, I am ever more sure than I was that it is impossible for anyone to accurately determine the average life of a pre Gresley Teak carriage on the GNR. I can only speak to the GNR, but so far
I have found no evidence in original documents that give accurate details of the specific carriage numbers after about 1860. The Boston receipts books do not specify individual coach numbers in each delivery, only that coaches 1-20 or so one were delivered. In addition the early GNR stock was number 1-200 in 5 or 6 different types, ie there was a number 5 in 1st class
a number 5 2nd class, and even a number 5 luggage vehicle. It was only in Stirling's time that the stock was reconciled in continuous numbers, and even then they lost a number of vehicles.

As for York having so much control over carriage stock, anyone believing that is living in a dream world. we know for certain that more than 7 carriages were found in 1938 for the No 1 train, and there are now about 12 6 wheelers in preservation to this day, more than 120 years after the last carriages were built as 6 wheelers by the GNR. Interesting then that they still built 4 wheelers in 1899/1900, even though they were much less long lived.

The first teak built ship in the Royal Navy, HMS Trincomalee has lasted over 200 years, whilst oak ships of the line lasted less than 50 years. so Teak carriages were certainly likely to last longer than those made of other timbers.

pre Gresley GNR carriages are a complex story, and anyone who states categorically that they know all the details is being plain naive. As I have found checking the tender details of pre Ivatt stuff, the GNR was not that clever about accurate detail keeping.

paul

[Woodcock29]

Hi Everyone

I have found the dialogue on this subject of much interest as I have in stock 10 D&S GN 6 wheelers to build for my fictional southern area LNER layout (predominantly ex GN and GC). I propose to build a triple set using a brake third, third and composite and a twin set - using two thirds. I was most fortunate in that I picked up 6 of the 10 from a deceased estate here in Australia in the last 6 months. I also have two D&S Dia 301 6 wheel full brakes as well as a Dia 303 from Bill Bedford to build.

I note from p90 of Ken Hoole's Illustrated History of ECJS Coaches that ECJS Dia 41 photo of No 259 shows that this 6 wheeled full brake had vestibules (gangway connections)(and was flat ended as distinct from GN Dia 299 which had bow ends) whereas ECJS No 259 is also listed in Nick Campling's Historic Carriage Drawings Vol 1 LNER and Constituents on p96 under GN Dia 301 which has the same body except it doesn't have vestibules.

Maybe Bill Bedford can confirm that the two are the same other than that the ECJS version was fitted with vestibules.

Also on a similar subject can anyone tell me where I can obtain Parcel, Fruit and Milk Van transfers for the D&S Dia 331 6 wheeled parcels van?

Woodcock29

[DS239]

More importantly, there were many NER bogie coaches cascaded to the Southern area in the 1930's. these generally replaced six wheeled GC, GN and GE stock, and some of the GN articulated sets.

Details of those cascaded coaches are in a British Railway Journal from the earlier 1990s. I can't find which one it is on here and I'll have to go and get my copy out later on to let you know.

I know this is rather an old thread,but I'm wondering if anyone knows which BRJ the cascaded coach info is in,or whether anyone has a copy and could post some info from it?
I asked on the 'make do and mend' modelling thread,but it might have got overlooked in the general discussion and it might be more appropriate in this thread,- I'm particularly after any info on any ex-NER,GNR,or GCR Brake Compo's or Brake Thirds that were transferred to the GE area.

As always,any help would be greatly appreciated..

[65447]

It was in BRJ12 Summer 1986, with letters in BRJ13 and 16.

PM me...

[drmditch]

More importantly, there were many NER bogie coaches cascaded to the Southern area in the 1930's. these generally replaced six wheeled GC, GN and GE stock, and some of the GN articulated sets.

Details of those cascaded coaches are in a British Railway Journal from the earlier 1990s. I can't find which one it is on here and I'll have to go and get my copy out later on to let you know.

I know this is rather an old thread,but I'm wondering if anyone knows which BRJ the cascaded coach info is in,or whether anyone has a copy and could post some info from it?
I asked on the 'make do and mend' modelling thread,but it might have got overlooked in the general discussion and it might be more appropriate in this thread,- I'm particularly after any info on any ex-NER,GNR,or GCR Brake Compo's or Brake Thirds that were transferred to the GE area.

As always,any help would be greatly appreciated..

Sorry I didn't reply on my modelling thread. I'm afraid my library doesn't cover much about the GE. The only data I can find is in Michael Harris' LNER Carriages' - which you probably already know - that in 1934 there were some 600 non-vestibule carriages were available for transfer from the NE to other areas. (Reference Page 28.)

[UpDistant]

The set on the Horncastle branch, 44616/2, remained there through out its life as a twin. Essendine set, 44141/2, worked the Essendine-Bourne branch until June 1951, It was then seen at Mapblethorpe. In summer 1956 it was on the Border Counties line between Newcastle and Hawick. It was seen at Leeds City on a train from Darlington in April 1958 and was used on the Bridlington-Scarbough service until condemned in August 1958.

The diagnostic difference between the units was that 44141/2 had top lights, while 44161/2 had wooden bonnet vents.

Sorry to drag this thread up again.

The "Horncastle set" 44161/44162 did escape from Lincolnshire in 1956. There are 3 photographs showing it on the Border Counties line - 2 in David Dunn's book (Booklaw - Steam Memories No. 68 The Border Counties Railway), B1 61330 on 21st July 1956, B1 61333 undated; the origin of the third escapes me at the moment but it shows the set at Hawick behind BR 3MT 77011. As Bill says, it is quite distinctive having numerous closely spaced bonnet vents.

The authoritative source (RCTS Green book 10B) has the information on the workings of the two sets as in Bill's quote, and Isinglass drawing 671 (for Diagram GN218WW) has identical information for 44141/44142 i.e. working on the Border Counties in 1956. Is this information correct? Has anyone seen photographic evidence that 44141/44142 did actually work between Newcastle and Hawick?

Is it possible that the original 1956 information is incorrect or incomplete?

Regards

John

[notascoobie]

Hi John,

To add to your post. The Horncastle branch lost its passenger service in September 1954. I have read that the set was employed elsewhere in Lincolnshire for a while before going north to the Border Counties. Can I remember where I read that? of course not and a perusal of likely sources reveals nothing.

The Horncastle branch set made an attractive little train. I believe that Bill listed it at one time for possible production. It's probably a scratchbuilding job as I can't see too many folks wanting a set.

Did you make your planned move? I've moved a couple of months back and its great!

Regards,

Vernon

[drmditch]

The first teak built ship in the Royal Navy, HMS Trincomalee has lasted over 200 years, whilst oak ships of the line lasted less than 50 years. so Teak carriages were certainly likely to last longer than those made of other timbers.
paul

Excuse me! Is not Victory still preserved in Portsmouth Dockyard, having remained afloat until 1906? She was launched, by the way, in 1759. She was not the only old oak-built man-of-war to linger into the late 19th century.

Of course old ships, like old locomotives, have experienced some replacements and rebuildings in their time.

If my reading is correct, oak from various sources was used for structural members in many GNR/LNER (and for that matter LNER) coaches.

Oak is a splendid timber to work, just make sure that all your tools are very sharp!

[notascoobie]

drmditch said "Oak is a splendid timber to work, just make sure that all your tools are very sharp!"

I agree.

And Teak is good to work but it will blunt your sharp tools quickly.

Regards,

Vernon