Overhauling an old A3 and B12

[Jim de Griz]

Yes, outside only due to fumes as the Soda reacts with the Meths, it is short lived reaction , but not pleasant and to be avoided.

That's something I'll need to keep an eye on, I have access to a shared garden, but with kids and dogs running about I need to be considerate of my neighbours when I do stuff like that. (Though in my experience its the adults who can't resist a 'do not touch' sign)

Thank you for the heads up. I assume once the reaction is complete it is safe enough to bring inside to do the actual paint stripping?

Hi Jim

It certainly does help, many thanks for that. The 2 × B12s currently pick up from 6 wheels per rail already but I have been looking at ways to get them picking up from all wheels if possible.

I have fitted pickups into the tenders of all my B12s but if you require any, I can post a picture of the pickup arrangement on 1 of the working locos either later or tomorrow as I don't have a picture of the pickups at the moment.

For the Triang A3 I recently created a pickup arrangement for 1 of these locos which has a recently purchased triang A3 chassis. The tender chassis is from 1 of the most recent Hornby A3 / A4 locos which have tender pickups. The coupling pin was removed as this was not needed but during the process the plastic around the coupling pin broke away. A repair was carried out by fitting a piece of 80 thou plasticard accross the chassis fixed in place with superglue and left to properly set overnight and further secured with small screws to ensure that the repair would not break away from the chassis.

The plasticard was then drill to roughly 2.5 or 3.0 mm and means that the loco and tender can be nicely close coupled, I also had to add extras weight glued into the tender body and also prevent shorting out the power. During 1 of the previous projects the tender had been used for, the original pickups got completely messed up and could not be repaired so I made my own pickups hence fitting the extra weight up in the body out of the way.

I was surprised when the loco moved as I didn't know if the modifications would work but it does and makes the loco run much better. I can provide pictures of the triang A3 pickups I made and the wiring for it if needed.

I would love to see how you've done the tender pick ups on the B12. I've had a look at this myself and I can't figure out how to replace the plastic wheels or where I could run the wires discretely from the tender to the motor.

Similarly I would be very interested in the A3 as that is my follow on project. I've not tried to fit pick ups to the middle driving wheels on the B12 because they don't seem to sit on the rails (something I only noticed when testing the model without connecting rods). I've not confirmed yet, but my A3 does appear to have all 6 wheels on the rails so 6 pick ups would certainly be valuable.

Jim de Griz

[mick b]

I simply put the stripped model in another box outside to then rinse under a Tap.

You can then either store the "stripping liquid" or put in down a drain which it will then clean for you as well !!.

[Mersey508138]

Hi Jim

My apologies for the delay in getting back to you with the pictures of the pickups I made for my B12 loco, I must also apologise because the pickups for the loco are built onto the more up to date chassis for the B12 which has a type 7 motor like those used in the class 142 pacer unit, however, this new chassis is a direct replacement fit for the B12.

Although the chassis has pickup from all 6 driving wheels, I found the original hornby pickups were an absolute pain to refit if you have to remove the baseplate to service the loco hence why I discarded the original pickups and made my own which I find preferable because if something goes wrong I can only blame myself and set to finding the issue, anyway onto the pictures.

Although the loco chassis might look quite a mess, I assure you it was quite easy to do, it was the connecting up to the type 7 motor which was the pain because they have tiny contacts for the wires and can break very easily.

On the tender only 4 of the wheels are wired for extra power collection at the moment as I ran out of phosphor bronze pickup strip when I was making them.and the pieces of copperclad board used were recovered from 1 of my attempts at making my own track to try and save a bit of money.

On the tender I fitted a polarised capacitor which although goes against some advice to fit no polarised capacitors, I found these a huge help to me as they have the negative symbol so I always fit them so that the negative side is the right hand running rail as if looking at the loco from above.

A bit here about the tender wheels : These are from the tenders of other hornby locos where parts have been used for projecs I have created or which are in the processing of creation ( early stages ). The original axles that these wheels are fitted to on the more modern locos need to be removed to allow fitting of the B12 tender axles.

To fit the wheels onto the B12 tender axles it is advisable to drill out the middle of the wheel from the side into which the axles is fitted using a drill bit of approximate size ( roughly 2.0 mm I think ), once the drilling is completed the B12 axles can thrn be fitted, I used a pair of srandard DIY pliers to rest 1 wheel onto, then using a pair of lighter long nose pliers gently tap the axle through the cantre of the wheel, it is important to ensure that fitting is only done gently because the whee centre's are made of plastic and very easy to break, the best advice here is not to use the spoked version

I also built the pickups so that they make contact with the treads of the wheels instead of the backs as the power collection via the treads is much more reliable.

In regards to the triang A3, I have run into a few minor issues at the moment but they will be sorted out soon so pictures will be delayed but I will get them done once I have sorted the issues out.

[Jim de Griz]

Thank you for the pictures, its always illuminating to see the approach someone else has taken.

I had a nasty feeling I'd need to make some permanent alterations to the tender chassis to get the axles out. Not having any spares at the moment I'm probably going to leave that for now and focus on the bogies. Still, nothing preventing me having a go at it in the future.

I do need to have a look at copper clad as an alternative to PCB though, particularly if I can get it 1mm thick. It would certainly be useful when I can do an internal attachment.

Incidentally, what purpose does the capacitor serve? I understand the one attached to the motor is to reduce 'sparking'?

Jim de Griz

[Jim de Griz]

I feel obliged to reiterate my safely warning of putting a hot soldering iron near set superglue. To be honest, with small space available to work on the bogie, I'd advise soldering first and sticking down second, even if that is the more awkward method...

For a totally unrelated reason I now need to go stick my head under a tap for a bit.

That sorted, I've got the A3's bogie wired up as per the B12. Seen here prior to soldering accident.

And as you can see I've made a start on the pony. That's a bit interesting as the wheel is split and I was concerned that if I fitted the same style of pick ups I used on the bogies the pickups would push the wheel apart and cause derailments. So with more space available, I took Mersey's suggest and fitted the pick ups to rub on the wheel treads. Haven't had a chance to test that yet, bit more soldering to do tomorrow.

Sorry for the blurry picture demonstrating the split pony wheel.

Also, could anyone help me identify which motor I have (and thus which replacement from Peter's Spares I need)

I understand the difference between the x03 and x04 is in the worm gear, but being coloured black I'm struggling to tell if it is plastic or brass. On pure visuals the worm gear looks more like that fitted to the x03 replacement than it does the x04.

Jim de Griz

[Mersey508138]

Hi Jim

The capacitor I fitted in the tender helps give the locos a bit of extra umpfff to get through any dead spots on my track aswell as insulfrog turnouts especially when the switch rails start to lose electrical conductivity and have to be constantly cleaned or link wires soldered onto respective pairs of rails leading to the frog area.

I have fitted those capacitors into other locos including some of the more modern up to date A3s and the railroad Peppercorn A1 which have helped to improve the performance of those locos aswell.

In reference to the motor, the version your loco has is the XO3 motor, the brass worm is the XO4 motor.

Hope this helps

[Pebbles]

The OX3 motor has single start plastic worm and gear with I think a 28:1 ratio. Whereas the XO4 has a two start brass worm and gear giving a 20:1 ratio. The replacement motor - which I believe have a lower voltage rating - would benefit in having the brass or later plastics gear with a single start worm this would give a 40:1 ratio.
I should point out that these motors - obviously without the mounting - can at times be obtained very cheaply off ebay.

[Jim de Griz]

In reference to the motor, the version your loco has is the XO3 motor, the brass worm is the XO4 motor.

Thanks for that Mersey, the B12 almost certainly needs a new motor, there is a definately a deadspot that cleaning doesn’t appear to fix and the fittings are all rather fragile. I added further pickups but that hasn’t fixed the problem. (Also need to adjust the wires on the bogie as I’ve noticed the front wheel lifting on sharp curves)

The A3’s electronics have progressed nicely, adding in the contacts on the pony wheels have completely removed her tendancy to stall and improved her slow speed running.

Unfortunately, her mechanical state is noticable worse than the B12, her main wheels all have a noticable wobby and its obvious the bearings are badly worn. As it stands, I’m not sure how many more years of service she has left. I’m going to finish the overhall and repaint, but I suspect she will eventualy need to be religated to guest appearences rather than a regular runner. (Which given the layout she run on is probably appropriate anyway)

Still it is good to see her running again

Jim de Griz

[Mersey508138]

Hi Jim

There is a triang A3 chassis on ebay which although it has no motor it is complete and should give your loco many more years of running.

I purchased a triang A3 chassis recently for I think around £29 + p&p so about £32 all in, I was finally able to buy some solder yesterday ( hopefully the correct stuff ) and hope to be able to connect the pickups in the tender chassis to the motor and also hope to be able to get some pictures of it and to post them on here.

[Jim de Griz]

Hi Jim

There is a triang A3 chassis on ebay which although it has no motor it is complete and should give your loco many more years of running.

I purchased a triang A3 chassis recently for I think around £29 + p&p so about £32 all in, I was finally able to buy some solder yesterday ( hopefully the correct stuff ) and hope to be able to connect the pickups in the tender chassis to the motor and also hope to be able to get some pictures of it and to post them on here.

Hi Mersey, that was very kind of you to look up for me, but I've decided not to go down that route.

Long story short, the A3 was a present and I'd rather keep as much of it original as practical. Replacing the whole chassis block seems a little bit too much like a 'Trigger's Broom' scenario for me. To be honest, I was really hoping that I wouldn't need to replace the motor on that engine and I'm very glad I'm not going to have to.

Overly sentimental reasoning, 100%. I accept it means I need to treat her carefully and start to consider limiting her duties. But, atleast she will still get to run.

Jim de Griz

[Mersey508138]

Hi Jim

My sincerest apologies for the delay in getting the photos of my triang A3 but I have recently wired the loco and tender together and finally got the pictures this morning.

Tender chassis pickups, further description below

Wiring to the motor.

The tender wiring is fairly simple really, it uses an up to date A3/4 tender chassis and the pickups shown are my self made pickups after the originals went totally duff on me and would be a nightmare to sort out.

The little bridge of plasticard was fitted last night so that I can fit a weight in the tender without shorting the pickups. On the front end of the tender chassis, the pin used to couple the tender to the up to date A3s and A4s was removed and 2 pieces of 80 thou plasticard were glued 1 on top of the other to make a different and easier way of coupling the tender to the loco. These are drilled to 3.2 mm for the coupling pin on the loco to couple to and also give a nice close coupling arrangement making my loco look very realistic.

The main thing I had to remember was that the motor on the triang A3 faces backwards so the insulation sleeve is on the drivers side as are the insulated driving wheels, why they were made like that I'll never understand but as it is I had to remember that the insulated side of the motor would connect to the left side of the tender if viewed from above and from the buffer end of the tender and the non isolated side of the motor connected to the right hand tender pickups from the same viewpoint.

Shortly after taking these pictures, the white wire which connects the non isolated side of the motor to the right hand tender pickups became disconnected from the tender pickups and needs redoing but all in all the locos performance is greatly improved and this is well worth doing.

I have been trying to make 4 sets of wheels with metal tyres for you so that you can use the original tender chassis ( unless you decide to use the up to date A3/A4 tender chassis ) but because the wheels have plastic spokes they break all too easily so unfortunately I have not had much luck and as a result I think the up to date tender chassis is the way to go, the only issue will be forming a new way of fixing the tender body in place although I found putting plasticard ( 80 thou I think ) on either side of the weight with some filing down if required, should give a snug fit although you might have a better way of fitting the body.

I think New Modellers Shop does an A3 tender with wheels but this modification is well worth it.

If you have any questions please don't hesitate to ask and I will answer them as best I can.

[Jim de Griz]

My turn for an apology Mersey, sorry its been a long week.

Its very interesting to see the tender arrangement. I think I agree with the wheels, getting them out will likely do more damage than good and trying to convert them into being 'live' is probably beyond my ability. I'm going to see how the new motor runs then decide if I need to get a updated tender.

On the subject of which, the Peter's Spare motor has arrived. Now to find the time to fit it.

Jim de Griz

[Mersey508138]

Hi Jim

No apologies necessary, everyone has long weeks now and again, to me it feels like some weeks drag on longer than others.

I fitted the XO4 version of the peters spares motor into my ivatt 2-6-0 and the difference in performance is very noticeable, on the 1st test I had barely turned the power on and the loco started up.

The original X04 motor that was fitted in the ivatt loco when I bought it at the port sunlight model fair back on the 28th of last month for just £20 is now residing in a hornby tender drive black 5 loco chassis which I converted to a loco drive and runs very well.

[Mersey508138]

Hi Jim

How are the A3 & B12 overhauls coming along, hope everything is ok.

[Jim de Griz]

Hi Mersey, things are well thank you , I’ve just been too busy to find the time to fit the motor and I’ve been waiting on a paint delivery so I can make more progress on the bodies.

The good news is that I should be able to dedicate some time to this project in the next week or two and the paint I need is being delivered this weekend.

With a little luck, I can get this project rolling again imminently

Jim de Griz