Twelve wheel coaches

[Eightpot]

Edit - 'Enprint' not 'Entrant'. Finger trouble.

[notascoobie]

G'day,

I'd like to resurrect this thread but minus the unpleasantness. Reason is that I'm having a go at some ECJS and GN&NEJS carriages.

Firstly I've reassessed the Peter K etches and I reckon the First Diner is actually no 317 Compo Diner. Originally I made the mistake of accepting the Hoole drawing but looking at photos .... it's wrong..... or at least I think it is. Ken labelled the photo of 317 incorrectly as a first so that might explain something.

I've got some D&S GNR 6wheel bogies but the axle boxes are wrong for ECJS. Is there a decent likeness to the ECJS bogie out there? I looked at the 247 website but found no reference to carriage items. I'm aware of the Bill Bedford etched frames.

Help and (polite) comments appreciated.

Vernon

[jwealleans]

Speak to the Resinmeister.... he may have what you seek.

Do you know of a suitable brass subframe for 11'9" 6 wheel bogies?

[MikeTrice]

There is a Bill Bedford sprung unit available via Eileen's Emporium. I hope to pick one up at the York Show this coming Saturday.

[notascoobie]

Speak to the Resinmeister.... he may have what you seek.

Do you know of a suitable brass subframe for 11'9" 6 wheel bogies?

Thanks Jonathan,
I'll have a word with the chap, see if he can sort me out!
I'll look to use the Bill Bedford sprung bogie frames, as noted above by Mike Trice.
Vernon

[Atlantic 3279]

Hello Vernon,

As far as I can tell the Peter K diner is supposed to be that vehicle - sort of, but lacking the recessed doors and with the wrong arrangement of windows and doors where the corridor passes the kitchen, the sides being wrongly "true mirror images" in the etched form. I'm currently trying a different approach to the building of the same kind of vehicle, as you may see over in the modelling section of this forum. Some other interesting developments are also under way and may be of use to you. If you're at York on Saturday a conversation may prove mutually enlightening.

[notascoobie]

Hi Graeme,
I've seen your PM thank you. I'll see you at York on Saturday.
Vernon

[AVSRailwaysUK]

Hello all!

Just to revitalise this thread a little once more, I've been investigating GCR excursion services, and was interested to find mentioned on Steve Banks' website - https://www.steve-banks.org/gcr/339-gcr ... -carriages (Section Two) - that the GCR also had a small roster of twelve-wheel vehicles, specifically restaurant/open thirds, built circa 1906 to a Parker body style and at a 60' length.

I've not, however, been able to find any further details or even any photos of these vehicles, which is a shame, as they do sound fascinating. If I'm not mistaken, the MS&LR experimented with twelve-wheel carriages earlier than this, sometime in the 1880s, perhaps? I think it was shortly before the SER also constructed a set of tri-composite twelve-wheel cars for use on boat trains, possibly inspired by Watkins' positive experience with them on the Mancs line.

Back to the Parker coach; I anticipate it would have been a typical Parker body panel style, but stretched along its length? As I say, I have nothing really to base this on other than the Banks article, so any information or help that cold be given would be greatly appreciated.

- Alexandra

[billbedford]

The 1906 twelve wheelers were open thirds to diagram 5C4 The body style matched the Robinson 50' corridor stock

The 1880s coaches were three first restaurant cars built for the GN & MS&L Sheffield Kings Cross service. They were reconditioned in 1913 and 1921. The changes made were the removal of the kitchens and the replacement of the wooden underframe with standard Robinson steel ones.

You have overlooked the 56' twelve wheeled coaches that Parker designed for the CLC in the 1880s.

[AVSRailwaysUK]

That's fantastic Bill, thank you! I'll see where I can get from there with that information. Hopefully with travel restrictions being eased soon I might be able to hop over to York and use their library.

Regards,

Alex

[Atlantic 3279]

The twelve wheeled MS&L diners originally built for joint service with the GN in the 1880s have an interesting history of rebuilding / restyling. Having access at the time only to a picture of one in original condition for comparison, I initially found it difficult to believe that I was looking at a vehicle "of the same type" in a distant photograph of a train on the Woodhead route in the LNER era.

[AVSRailwaysUK]

I found it an odd design, too - there's a photo in C.H. Ellis' Railway Carriages in the British Isles from 1830 to 1914, 1965 edition, p. 112 with a description on p. 130.

The cars only seated twenty in a 60' body, a seat either side of the centre aisle, and the central kitchen (full-width) separated the two dining saloons, one smoking, one non. The general body design and the bogies were very similar to the Continental Royal designed for the South Eastern in the same period.

[billbedford]

There is a photo in Dow vol2 of 1000 when new, which shows the kitchen at one end. Where the other two different?

They sat 28 when the kitchen was removed.

[Atlantic 3279]

I assumed end kitchens in all so would be interested to hear more.