Park Siding. ECML spotting venue

[StevieG]

Yes I have seen a distant shot of those signals on that gantry from a few photographs in the past Stevie but I never saw it in real life it was several years before my time, the first time that I travelled through New Southgate on a train was around June/July 1967 and I don't recall that gantry still being there at that time.

Mickey

Sorry Mickey; despite my lengthy description, I now realise that I only generally referred to that whole signal as a 'structure' : Rather than being a gantry, it was actually a 3-doll bracket affair that carried the five arms, with the two dolls for the Up Slow on the lower, left-hand, bracket, and the two UF arms' doll on the higher, right-hand bracket : A slightly strange looking arrangement really.
I think it probably had gone by 1967, as I never saw it either.

There may be some other signalling interest in that the replacement colour-light UF starter (No.16) was the only signal I ever knowingly encountered which was released by the "Line Clear - One Train" arrangement instead of the common "Line Clear - One Pull'.

This meant that you could clear it and put it back to Danger as many times as you wanted while 'the Block' was at 'Line Clear' - provided that the signal's approach track circuit, which started just clear of the US-UF crossover, was indicating Clear.

Once that TC was occupied, you could only clear the starter once if it was at red at the time, or if it was already 'Off' you wouldn't be able to pull it again if you put it back while the TC was occupied.

Incidentally that TC going Clear when a train cleared its south end going towards the tunnel was arranged electrically to 'Last Wheel Replace' the signal to Danger even if its lever was still Reverse.


giner , Pretty sure that I never saw anything on that narrow gauge line either.
If I'd been braver then and gone through the always open dilapidated gate over the line, I'd have found for sure where it led to (and probably sketched the route and layout).


[ Apologies to all, on realising that we've wandered some way on here from "Park Siding....", (though less than 1 mile geographically ! ).]

[Mickey]

Yes I have seen a distant shot of those signals on that gantry from a few photographs in the past Stevie but I never saw it in real life it was several years before my time, the first time that I travelled through New Southgate on a train was around June/July 1967 and I don't recall that gantry still being there at that time.

Mickey

Sorry Mickey; despite my lengthy description, I now realise that I only generally referred to that whole signal as a 'structure' : Rather than being a gantry, it was actually a 3-doll bracket affair that carried the five arms, with the two dolls for the Up Slow on the lower, left-hand, bracket, and the two UF arms' doll on the higher, right-hand bracket : A slightly strange looking arrangement really.
I think it probably had gone by 1967, as I never saw it either. (and probably sketched the route and layout).

To be honest Stevie I loosely called it a 'gantry' in my post but it did cross my mind before I posted my post to call it a 'signal structure' rather than a signal gantry?.

By the way Stevie one question regarding New Southgate's Up fast line x3 aspect colour light signal?.

Am I correct in thinking that that colour light signal that also acted as Wood Green Up Box No.2s Up fast line distant signal and Wood Green Up Box No.4s Up fast line outer distant signal wasn't capable of showing a double-yellow aspect?. I maybe wrong but I don't believe I ever saw that signal showing a double-yellow aspect whenever passing it on a train on any line?. I remember seeing it showing red, yellow & green aspects but I can't recall ever seeing a double-yellow aspect?. If by chance it wasn't capable of showing a double-yellow aspect could that have been something to do with the 'short block section' between Wood Green Up Box No.2 & Wood Green Up Box No.4?.

* * *If anyone is ready this post I must add that the above colour light signal that was controlled by New Southgate box was abolished in February 1973 along with all the other signals that were controlled by New Southgate box which was over 44 years ago now so the old memory is becoming slightly blurred on such matters all these years on.* * *

Mickey

[StevieG]

" .... To be honest Stevie I loosely called it a 'gantry' in my post but it did cross my mind before I posted my post to call it a 'signal structure' rather than a signal gantry?. ... "

Wherever there was a 3-doll signal standing on only one main post with the middle arm(s)' doll directly above that, and so having brackets either side (at the same level) for the other two dolls, then I'd call it a 'balanced bracket' signal (Think of Goods & Mineral's 3-dolled Up Distants signal beside the Holloway Up Goods line flyover approach). But that one at 'Southgate' was so different in an unusually different way that I didn't think 'Balanced bracket' was appropriate for it.

In fact I think I adopted the term after reading it in an SN Notice Section 'C' item's description text regarding (If you can remember it) Harringay Up Goods Box's Up Goods No.1 line Starter (Two stop arms vertically on a straight post with a 2-way 'stencil' route indicator below the lower one), replacing the previous 3-doll bracket signal for three arms (which I've a feeling may have needed replacing through having been discomknockerated by some derailment / collision incident).

" .... By the way Stevie one question regarding New Southgate's Up fast line x3 aspect colour light signal?.

Am I correct in thinking that that colour light signal that also acted as Wood Green Up Box No.2s Up fast line distant signal and Wood Green Up Box No.4s Up fast line outer distant signal wasn't capable of showing a double-yellow aspect?. .... " -- " .... If by chance it wasn't capable of showing a double-yellow aspect could that have been something to do with the 'short block section' between Wood Green Up Box No.2 & Wood Green Up Box No.4?. .... "
Mickey

Right enough Mickey : 3-aspect R/Y/G only. I'm sure that it was that short approx. 350-yard distance from Wood Green No.4's semaphore Distant under No.2's Home, to No.4's Home that was the reason for 'Southgate's Starter not being equipped to show a mere YY aspect (rather less restrictive than just Y, of course) When WG4 hadn't 'pulled all Off'.

[Mickey]

As previously posted Stevie I only ever saw a rather distant photograph or two of those signals on that signal structure/gantry and it did look a bit unconventional?.

Also as for New Southgate's Up fast line x3 aspect colour light starting signal only being capable of showing either a red, yellow & green aspect I thought that was the case but thanks for the confirmation Stevie I appreciate it.

Seeing your previous comment Stevie about the topic thread heading I reckon it mite be best to draw a line under this thread regarding signalling questions about the signalling arrangements at New Southgate.

Mickey

[StevieG]

" .... Seeing your previous comment Stevie about the topic thread heading I reckon it mite be best to draw a line under this thread regarding signalling questions about the signalling arrangements at New Southgate."

Mickey

Definitely !

[manna]

G'Day Gents

I know a few years has past, but here is another pic of 'Park sidings, seen on the left.

manna

[Dave Cockle]

I would call the siding on the left Wood Green Tunnel Siding(s).

[silverfox]

John

Tommy Knox would be very interested in any pacific workings you may have times and trains hauled esp. I think he is also doing V2 movements

I am doing much the same as a with a chaps notebooks who lived at Northamptn and Watford, Mostly LMS but he did travel a lot About 20 odd books from 1920 to 1965 or so.as has been mentioned earlier a lot of his stuff was 'disposed of' by his parents whilst he was serving King and country but some was salvaged

Ron

[Mickey]

I haven't seen that photograph before manna very interesting. I am guessing it was taken around 1900?. Wood Green Up box No.2 looked exactly the same 70+ years later in the early 1970s before it was closed around 1974/75. Bounds Green box can just about be made out in the far distance. A large lattice post signal gantry that carried Wood Green No.2s Up lines home signals was removed around 1915 although it was obviously after this photograph was taken and I assume was replace by the large wooden T bracket signal post with the x4 dolls that remained until the box closed around 1974/75. The lattice bracket post home signals coming off the Up Enfield line that can be seen in the photograph also remained until the box was closed around 1974/75.

A North London Railway train is seen passing Wood Green Up box No.2 heading along the Up slow line and approaching Wood Green station.

[kimballthurlow]

Hello,
Would this scan of pages 22 and 23 of a 1935 "Geographia" Greater London Atlas be of assistance?
Price will be 12/6 thank you.

No doubt nothing much has changed in street names and positions to this day.
Interesting thing about this book (which is basically a street directory with index) is that the outermost map for the LNER GN line northward is New Barnet. I guess London residential areas have expanded considerably.

regards
Kimball

[BoxBoy]

The death of semaphore signaling at Wood Green captured by me in 1974

[Mickey]

The death of semaphore signaling at Wood Green captured by me in 1974

Yeah I was around for the last 6-7 years before the end In 1974-75 and knew the London area very well between Kings Cross & Wood Green but it had to finish and it probably finished at the right time.

[silverfox]

I recall the gantries at Wood Green twixt 58-63. As Station RD morphed into Buckinghm Rd and then turned left to go over the Railway and become Bridge Road,just before the turn there were 2 PO Telephone Cabinets on the pavement that were about 4ft high. These were ideal perches as from this viewpoint you could see both the up and down gantries ( the up were visible for us lesser mortals at ground level, but the Station buildings obscured the down) The addition height enabled those on the 'crows nest' prior warning that both the main home and distant were off and something was due. If the up was also showing clear at the same time, the cry of 'Eccy Bo'way' rang out and one of us was dispatched on his bike over the bridge to get the down loco just in case they crossed before going under the bridge Many a tale of an obscure Canal A3 or other rara avis was given on their return
When those Craven Units started appearing we arranged for the kids to get one car each as they went through rather than trying to get them all yourself

Happy days

[Mickey]

I don't know if I saw this or I imagined I saw this even to this day?.

One day during a visit to Alexandra Palace (Ally Pally) near Wood Green during the summer of 1964 (the year I am certain about) I have a feeling that when I was looking down from the high vantage point of the Alexandra Palace and looking down towards the railway and it's many straight running lines between Hornsey and Wood Green I saw a steam hauled express tearing along the Down fast line with it's train of coaches from my high distant vantage point and seeing a long white smoke trail from the locos chimney along it's train of coaches. Even after the closure of Top Shed in the summer of 1963 I believe the odd steam working still ran out of Kings Cross during 1964 and didn't the very last steam hauled Night Scotsman have a A4 hauling the train during October 1964(?) so maybe I did see what I thought I saw?.

[silverfox]

Mickey

Possible the Jubille Requim Oct 64


This from 6 bells junction suoer site for any railtour info


24th October 1964

R.C.T.S. / Stephenson Locomotive Society
The Jubilee Requiem

Loco Used 60009 'Union of South Africa'
Stock Used load 10
Route :

Loco Route
60009 London Kings Cross - (via ECML) - King Edward Bridge South Jn - Gateshead - High Level Bridge - Newcastle - King Edward Bridge South Jn - (via ECML) - London Kings Cross
Notes :
(1) This was a simple out and back run, over the ECML, with a ten coach train in recognition of the demise of the A4 Pacific's over this route. The northbound run was marred by a broken rail at High Dyke (MP100), the return was more spirited with a thirty minute early arrival at Kings Cross.
(2) David Whittaker comments: I was on this tour southbound. By the time of the run some of the water troughs on the ECML at the southern end had been removed, hence the stops and the need for the engine crews to keep a wary eye on supplies. Even so some of the running was of remarkably good quality, with net times of around 79 minutes form Newcastle to York, schedule 85 minutes, 102 minutes from York to Peterborough schedule 116½ minutes and 71½ minutes Peterborough to King's Cross schedule 92 minutes. Tfrom 1949-51he train had been booked to run slow line Peterborough to Yaxley to allow a following Leeds express to overtake, but was running so well that Control allowed it up the main and this, aided by further good running, produced a very early arrival at King's Cross. Assessing maximum speed down Stoke was made difficult by signal checks approaching Grantham, preventing a real run at the bank, so important for a high speed descent and also by the combination of darkness and long welded rails, but the maximum, based on averages between points, is likely to have been around 95-97mph, certainly not 100 - mores the pity. Still a very enjoyable trip.

Sources : David Hills (compiled from contemporary reports) & Trevor Davis


A quickie back to Finsbury Park ( the park ,not the station) in 1950ish I had very bad milk teeth and spent many hours at Eastmans Clinic in Grays Inn Road. Dad used to Take me to see Basset Lowke showrooms in High Holborn and then onto Kings Cross Where we travelled to FP Station. From here he tookme to anoverhanging platform in the park that was on he up side of the railway and i can recall from the recesses of my mind seeing Blue Engines, Now whether they were LNER of the experimental schme i know not. BUT it was a great place fora 4yrold to watch trains go by. Nanlived in Mildmay St near the fabled Balls Pond Road and to get back to Edmonton it was a z33 Tram to Manor House and then a trolley to Edmonton. Other times a bus ride to HAckney Downs and thence to >Lower Edmonton. I still use Hackney downs when goung to the Spurs and gstanding on the Enfield down platform i am taken back all those years. it still has a very steamy atmosphere