long meg - widnes

[widnesian]

this is, strictly speaking, an British Railways question but, hopefully, someone here will be able to furnish information so here goes. I have been told that anhydrate trains from Long Meg to Widnes were classified as class 9 freight usually hauled by a 9F, if a 8F loco was rostered for the trip the number of hoppers was reduced, does anyone know by how many. Also, I have a photograph of Black 5 No. 44884 off 12A with a train of empty hoppers at Tanhouse sidings in Widnes setting off for Long Meg in about 1965/6, would the number of hoppers be reduced again for the 5F

Richie

[thesignalman]

this is, strictly speaking, an British Railways question but, hopefully, someone here will be able to furnish information so here goes. I have been told that anhydrate trains from Long Meg to Widnes were classified as class 9 freight usually hauled by a 9F, if a 8F loco was rostered for the trip the number of hoppers was reduced, does anyone know by how many. Also, I have a photograph of Black 5 No. 44884 off 12A with a train of empty hoppers at Tanhouse sidings in Widnes setting off for Long Meg in about 1965/6, would the number of hoppers be reduced again for the 5F

It is a bit of a difficult question because the workings changed from 8Fs to 9Fs when the bogie hoppers were introduced which I think was mid-60s. I'm pretty sure the 8Fs generally worked from depots at the south end (WDs or Staniers) but the operations changed completely with 9Fs and as you say they came out of Kingmoor.

The earlier operations used to work empty to the Down Refuge at Langwathby as Class 8, then light to Upperby for coal, returning later to Langwathby to take the empties tender first into Long Meg and then pick up the loads to go south Class 9 to Hellifield and Class 8 onwards.

The reason for stashing the empties at Lanwathby was to fit around the opposite working (one was Widnes and the other Adlington) and also because the box at Long Meg was not open on night shift.

There was also a working to Howe & Cos, normally a 4F I think.

I don't know how operations were done in 9F days but my suspicions are that it involved double-running of wagons from Langwathby as the trains were probably longer than the loops at Long Meg for running round.

The loaded trains were exceptionally heavy and their inability to stop on the downward gradients was probably why they were classed 9 and restricted to 25 mph on the S&C section so I would expect smaller engines to require a reduced load although I'm not sure what the Anhydrite recipients would have thought of that! They had ample 9Fs at Kingmoor so they should never have been short - I have seen a picture of one on Carstairs shed, slightly off-piste but this shows where the spares could get to! I would have thought the 5MT would have struggled on the S&C even with empties - perhaps it picked up a pilot at Hellifield.

John

[Mickey]

As seen on a dvd called Heavy Freight on a Transport Video Publishing dvd.

A Long Meg to Widnes Anhydrite working hauled by a (Horwich built) 8F 2-8-0 with 20 hopper wagons behind the tender and a brake van at the rear of the train heading south through Dent station on the Settle & Carlisle at Easter in 1964.

Mickey

[widnesian]

more information on anhydrate trains, it seems the standard number for an 9F was 20 wagons + brake van, reduced to 18 for an 8f. A recently discovered negative of a 3/4 side view of 44884, leaving Tanhouse in December 1967 with a return empties shows her to have 15 + brake van
It has been mentioned of the availability of locos for this target, I have a number of photos from late 60's illustrating how chronic the shortage of locos could be, locos from Carnforth, Wakefield, Speke Junction, Dallam and Mollington Street all commandeered to haul loaded trains to Tanhouse and take empties back to Long Meg, and a couple of locos taken off the scrap lines at Kingmoor for one last journey. It wasn't uncommon in late 67 to see the train loco doing shunting work, from then onwards diesel class 40,s became the main haulers and I put the camera in the drawer, the magic died

[52D]

Steam from scrap lines, Blyth provided unusual motive power for the Shilbottle Oxwellmains coal trains towards the end of steam by utilising locos that were bound for Bolcow the breakers as motive power. Including A2s a bit of overkill from the usual 4MT types normally used.

[thesignalman]

As seen on a dvd called Heavy Freight on a Transport Video Publishing dvd.

A Long Meg to Widnes Anhydrite working hauled by a (Horwich built) 8F 2-8-0 with 20 hopper wagons behind the tender and a brake van at the rear of the train heading south through Dent station on the Settle & Carlisle at Easter in 1964.

Mickey

more information on anhydrate trains, it seems the standard number for an 9F was 20 wagons + brake van, reduced to 18 for an 8f. A recently discovered negative of a 3/4 side view of 44884, leaving Tanhouse in December 1967 with a return empties shows her to have 15 + brake van

I am guessing that in 1964, as mentioned by Mickey, the trains were formed of four-wheel hoppers whereas the 9F operations would have been the bogie hoppers? I am racking my brains as to the date of the change*, but I am pretty sure the 9Fs were introduced specifically for the the new bogie wagon operations. Twenty bogies would have been longer than the loops at Long Meg so must have warranted some shunting to make up the train before departure, and also after arrival with the empties.

* - the date the three 9Fs were allocated to 12A would pin this down

Once the empties were stabled on the Reception lines, they would have been individually manoevred from the mine end of these lines for loading, presumably they had their own engine for this although I have never seen any mention of it. There was also, at one time, a narrow gauge railway between the mine and the loading point and some evidence of this still exists.

I have read that just five men worked at the mine, it is almost unbelievable that so few people managed to extract such a large quantity of material daily.

John

[Mickey]

A nice winter snow scene piece of amateur colour film footage is to be found of a grimy 9F 2-10-0 on a southbound Anhydrite working emerging into the railway cutting from Birkett tunnel north of Ais Gill summit & s/box in December 1966. This short piece of film is featured in a dvd called Steam And Snow released by Transport Video Publishing of Hemel Hempstead in Hertfordshire.

Below Birkett tunnel the south portal where the grimy 9F 2-10-0 emerged from with a southbound Anhydrite working in December 1966.

http://s0.geograph.org.uk/geophotos/01/ ... 4abaec.jpg

Mickey