Kings Cross suburban locos

[Andy W]

Cravens (class 105) 2 cars, in various combinations of DMBS/DTCL, were the standard kit on the GN from about 1959 to 1978. They were supplemented in the late 1960's by the Derby/Rolls Royce class 125 3 car sub sets from the GE together with a small number of their mechanical equivalant (class 116) which we used to know as the BUT sets. The Rolls sets went in 1976 and the BUT sets in 1978.

As a rough measure, Suburban sets of LHCS were either two quad arts (until 1966) or up to 6 suburban coaches, exclusively short Mk 1 coaches in later years. Each set of suburban coaches would usually have at least one BS and one CL.

[69530]

Silverfox I too spent most of my time at Wood Green Station with a few visits to Northumberland Park in the same period as you. I can remember CBE services being almost monopolised by B17's 61652 Darlington and 61653 Huddersfield town, 61671 Royal Sovereign was a frequent visitor too, all the Cambrigde B17's would be seen eventually, and once I saw a B12 on these workings.
From 1961 Brittania's 70038/9/40/1 were allocated to Immingham and took over from BI's on all the Grimsby Workings.

[Mickey]

Silverfox I too spent most of my time at Wood Green Station with a few visits to Northumberland Park in the same period as you.

It appears that a number of people on here use to do there 'spotting' at Wood Green station in years gone by i presume standing at the south end of the Down slow no.1 & Down slow no.2 lines platform directly opposite Wood Green Up box no.4 looking southwards 'down the long straight' towards Hornsey station and carriage sidings in the far distance.

Out of the 4 London suburban stations between Finsbury Park & Wood Green i reckon Hornsey (old station layout) would have offered the best views especially looking southwards towards the Ferme Park Up & Down marshalling yards, Harringay flyover and the sweeping curve towards Harringay west station.

Around 1971/72 i was standing on Hornsey Down slow no.1 & no.2 lines platforms doing a bit of spotting one afternoon when i was invited up Hornsey no.1 s/box by the signalman (relief-signalman Jim Churcher) for an hour or so and was even allowed to pull several signal levers i remember.

[chiggers]

Hi. Up until the mid 1950's the N2's haul 8 carriages, two sets of gresley quad-arts (quad articulated sets)
Thereafter a modern set of five, all were non corridor. After the demise of the N2's Diesel eng's continued to haul the 5 carriage set,
until the arrival of the DMU's Regards chiggers

[chiggers]

Hello Manna. I lived in the flats alongside hornsey station. so called gisburn mansions. always plenty of activity in the 1950's to be
seen from Hornsey bridge. did you ever "bunk in" th hornsey shed. 34B on the other side of the bridge? There was a 70 ft turntable
and coal wagon hoist there too! We never had time to be bored, Happy days. regards chiggers

[Hatfield Shed]

...After the demise of the N2's Diesel eng's continued to haul the 5 carriage set, until the arrival of the DMU's...

The lovely 'Ped', Brush type 2 (TOPS 30, and then 31 when subsequently re-engined) was with us on the suburban service until 1976 and displacement by the EMU. The Cravens DMU, (TOPS 105) was the regular off-peak service provider; but the peak hours had to remain loco hauled because these marginal devices couldn't hack it with the maximum load.

It all adds up to how impressive the N2, especially combined with the standard pair of Quadarts, really was. A number of pilot scheme diesel classes were tried and failed as replacements - and I heard it from someone who should have known that the Derby Sulzer 2 (TOPS 24) which on paper looked ideal for the job wasn't tried because it was 'important that it not fail'! - before the Brush 2 was established as the best replacement. Near twice the weight of an N2, and after relatively little time on this service had to receive a larger EE design motor.

[Woodcock29]

This subject is interesting to me as I lived at Potters Bar from 1955 until 1964 when I was eight and we emigrated to South Australia.

I really only recall the Craven DMUs but I assume the Baby Deltics, even though they were a failure, must have worked the outer suburban services from Kings Cross in the late 50s/early 60s?

Most of my train spotting with my Dad was to see 'streamliners' of course! I still have vivid memory of Golden Plover standing in the down slow platform at Potters Bar - either on a Sat or a Sun.

Woodcock29

[Hatfield Shed]

The Baby Deltics had a very brief run on the outer suburban services, 59 - 62, failing frequently until taken away for rebuilding. The racket they made racing through WGC was impressive - but of course only when running - the failures in service were by all accounts a disaster. When they returned in 64/65 their use was sporadic, for all of inner and outer sub turns and freights. Reliability was no better, and they were withdrawn 68.

Sad I thought at the time as they were a good looking design, and being young I enjoyed the sound effects. But operationally, they must have been endlessly frustrating for those who had to operate and maintain them.

[Andy W]

Actually the Baby Deltics were much improved on rebuilding and had a very good availability and good reliability history henceforth. It was when I worked I the KM at Kings Cross in the late 1970's that I studied the mileage books, availability records and casualty histories and found out the truth. I was very surprised.

Mind you, it was still a bonkers concept for a general use type 2 - using an engine more suited to constant power running with some mad auxiliaries. The eventual use of the EE engine in the Brush 2 was a much more useful and economic concept. A 31 could pull just about anything although stopping them with excessive loads could get interesting. The Baby Deltics, however, were just about the fastest accelerating loco around - my recollections of them on the Cambridge buffets were very impressive. They also used to double head the naptha tanks from Ferme Park to Cadwell. Effectively they were sub shedded at Hitchin where they used to do up to C exams on them and, after rebuilding, some of the fitters grew quite fond of them.

However, as a non standard class with lower power than the ubiquitous, more numerous and more useful cl.31 they were not going to survive the National Traction Plan and starting with 5906 and 5907 (due classified) they started to be withdrawn. Power units problems (sometimes associated with the fire brigade taking drastic measures to the common exhaust fires) saw the demise of the rest in 1968/69 until four were left. 5901 went to Derby Research, 5902 succumbed with loose tyres (on C exam) in late 1969 leaving 5905 and 5909 (the only blue one) to go onto till early 1971, when minor faults occurred and they were deemed surplus.

The engines that were latterly hated were the BTH type 1's ("Paxmans"). Very poor reliability and occasionally in summer they had to be pressed into service on suburban workings. The fitters at Clarence Yard thought it a penance if they had to do the cylinder heads on those things, even when they were (latterly) just heating units.

[Woodcock29]

Thanks for that Andy W - most interesting.

Woodcock29

[silverfox]

Re B17 and Brits, I must be the unluckiest person never to have seen one through Wood Green.During school holidays we used to sit on top of the BT ( Then GPO telephones) cabinet boxes that were sited just before the LH turn onto the bridge, we could just see the down main signals and also the up main signals so were never caught out by a train suddenly appearing. The problems really started when the Cravens DMU came through on the main tripled up. We soon overcame the number spotting problem by emplying 2-4 more spotters and allocating them a certain car to check. Voila 6 numbers on each passThe Normal spot during school lunch hours was in the waiting room of the down platform after doing a quick return to Hornsey to check the shed out. Sometimes we went reckless,if funds permitted, and made KX and back. Another trip was after school to K to get some pacific haulage on the express that left about 4.50 and was first stop Finsbury Park, we just called it the Peterborough as IIRC that was the next stop. My lad calls that 'insect mileage'! Having aid that one of the lads brothers worked in the restaurant cars and was train made. so much so that by various ways and means he cleared the whole 202 pacifics for haulage. Blondie Johnson who lived at Potters Bar and overlooked the GN main line is the only guy i knew who had seen at the end of 1961, every BR steam loco Does anyone else recall the dozen or so of NBL type 2 that worked the suburban for a while i think they were D6100-9/16/26. The Baby Deltics used to work the Baldock semis and were really thrashed through Wood Green. However we always liked the L1 that took the overnight sleepers over the Hertord flyover and stalled on the bank. They used to reverse back though the station and the give it everything, meanwhile looking back towrds Hornsey we ciould see the other ECS they were holding up. It didnt happen a lot and how i wish video was around then.

[manna]

G'day Gents

And a welcome to chiggers, I remember the dark red flats opposite Hornsey station, are they still there !! Never tried to bunk Hornsey shed, you could see a lot from the footbridge

My favourite, was to buy a 3d return to Hornsey, from Wood Green, and then go backwards and forwards all day, Wood Green return to KX was 1/3d half a weeks pocket money !!

manna

[silverfox]

Manna,
Out travel costs from Edmonton Green was
2d on he trolley to White Hart lane
3d on the 233 to Wod green station
10d ( child return) Wood Green to KX
total 1/8d and a few shillings left over for the individual fruit pie and regulation Jubbly
w Across the road to St Pancras then walked to Euston and then the Met to Paddington. Staight back to KX, and i can still vaguely recall the bay platform there,but never saw a tain in it. (once saw the Royal Scot triple headed by the southern 1Co-Co1's)
The following Sat was the same but calling in at Waterloo/Victoria and occasionly London Bridge, and if there was a Met Bo-Bo at Liv St, change at Baker Street for the long way around on the Circle to Victoria, then out to Clapham and into Waterloo.

[giner]

Ohhhhh for a blackcurrant individual fruit pie and a jubbly. Heaven for a bob.

[rockinjohn]

Craven units when having just arrived in the area '58?would appear as a 12 coach unit for a regular Sunday working to Grimsby&Cleethropes,coming off the wooden carriage sheds @Holloway Down &reversing in Clarence Yard before climbing the "creep"&X bound,now that would have been a good viewing journey even if an uncomfortable one,returning on Sun night ready for the start of the week on "X" area suburban workings having been remarshalled,how long this lasted I'm not sure,but they became very rundown &dirty with no automatic&only hand washing ( longbroom&bucket not very often) a journey on one would be a rattling affair&little to see thru filthy windows,mention of the NBL's the first 19 went to Hornsey along with I think a couple of stragglers(not being liked for the Moorgate turns) all ending up over the Border,they must have tested Eastfield's fitters, a case of let the maker worry about it?,the Sulzer 2's, again the first 19+another 5 loaned by the Scottish Region for a few months, all heading north eventually,once the Brush 2's came on stream,intrestingly the S.R.didn't pass the Brush 2's for inter-region work initially, hence a few BR Sulzer 2's were borrowed from 31B(march)&elsewhere for that work outside of peak hours, when they were needed for Suburban work/&ECW, reaching Moorgate&Broad Street along with "X",At least the dreaded Paxman engined plumbing nightmares the D84XX's didn't reach Hornsey or Finsbury Park TMD,they had their work cut out with the "Baby"Deltics @Hitchin.