ECJS Coaches for No 1 in 1938

[dlester]

I have been looking at photos -- from both June and September 1938 -- of the Howlden 6-wheel stock attached to No 1.

So far I have identified (well Ken Hoole has) 92. A 4 compartment semi-corridor lav-first.

And also in Rolt's book: 103. This is what would become known as a Diag 303 29' full brake on the GNR.

An overall view of the train from the air is shown in Peter Coster's GNR vol 1 book. This enables us to see that the seven coach train included: two 29' full brakes, two lav-first semi corridors, and what look like three five compartment thirds.

Looking through Terry Henderson's GNRS publications suggests that the vehicle labelled 92, might well be the real ECJS 92 restored. However 103 was scrapped/transferred (to GNR?) prior to extant ECJS records. And it's siblings from the 1883 batch of 29' brakes were also scrapped in the Edwardian period. There were a total of 120 vans built to diag 303 in GNR days, many of the later builds surviving up to WW2. Is it one of these later builds masquerading as ECJS 103?

Do we have numbers of the remaining vehicles? Do we know whether the vehicles were actually those portrayed or was a certain amount of re-badging going on? And finally: am I right that there were three 5-compartment thirds in the train?

Thanks in advance for any help.

[MikeTrice]

If my memory serves me right, The Railway Gazette did a feature article on the 1938 Scotsman. This included a diagram showing the formation which is represented in "LNER Passenger Trains and Formations" by messrs Banks and Carter. In the same issue they had a similar diagram for the Stirling Single and restored GNR coaches. Unfortunately I do not have a copy.

[1H was 2E]

The September run was organised by the RCTS, so a logical place to look would be the Railway Observer and, indeed, 111/2 pages of the September issue are devoted to it; detail includes, for instance, the name and home town of every passenger; but of the coaches - nil!. The only coach reference is a CJ H-Ellis photo of a first class door panel, which carried the ECJS crest. This also shows that the door had been revarnished, suggesting that the coaches were restored rather than just rounded up from the nearest siding.
A full page photo shows the train to be formed (although not clear whether on the down or up run); full brake; 5cpt; 5cpt; 4cpt with centre lav; 4cpt with centre lav; 5cpt; full brake; and all very uniform.
Sorry this isn't much help, but, adly, this just proves again that, so often, "Railway" actually means "Engine" - those company histories churned out in the 60's that had pages of logs of runs behind express locos but, apparently, the authors decided that other engines, what the engines pulled, or the infrastructure they ran on, or the structures and fittings they passed, were all unimportant and not worth a mention. (rant over!) At least our Forum provides coverage of all this stuff!

[MikeTrice]

There is mention in Great Northern Locomotive History Vol 2: Seven vintage G.N, six-wheel coaches were suitably redecorated, resplendent in "E.C.J.S" scrolls and crests and with the communication cord placed outside the coaches in accordance with the practice of the eighteen-eighties.

[john coffin]

It is certain that although the numbers of the carriages in the train were from a similar, ie 1888 train, the carriages restored were not all similar vehicles so it is not possible to make a direct relationship between the number and the carriage in 1938. By that time, there were still a number of
6 wheelers that had not been gutted and sent to departmental use, nor converted to artics, but of more importance was the time available to
round up the vehicles, and "restore" them to a similar condition as they might have had in 1888.

Terry Henderson and I have been checking out this for some time. Must get to the British Library to check out Railway Gazette, mind you would be
nice to have a guide from Mike about the date he thinks the issue is?

Don't forget the train was run around for a number of weeks, so there are in fact many photos showing the whole train.

Paul

[jwealleans]

In the 'York Pot Pourri' film which features the Coronation there is also some film of No. 1 and at least one of the carriages on show in the old York station. I believe that dates from 1938 or the early part of 1939.

[65447]

There is a photograph of the whole train on p425 of the 1938 LNER Magazine. The carriages are described as 7 6-wheeled ex-ECJS.

As the OP states Ken Hoole's Illustrated History of East Coast Joint Stock notes on p132 that one of the carriages was No. 92, formerly a 4 compt 2 lavatory 1st built Doncaster 1884 and transferred 1905 to the GNR and renumbered 3027. It is likely that such identification was made from the photograph at the foot of p125 of that particular carriage in the train, below another photograph of the whole train in less detail.

Since only one is detailed it suggests that sourcing information on the other six proved challenging. However using the lists it would be possible to eliminate those having condemned dates before 1938.

[MikeTrice]

The issue of The Railway Gazette was a 1938 issue but cannot remember the month. It is some years since I saw it.

Edit: July?

[1H was 2E]

As I did mention, the photo in the RO shows an amazing uniformity of the coaches. It was taken in 1938 and published in 1938; has the copyright expired? (I could post it, if legal).

[john coffin]

Thanks Mike will check out the Railway Gazette index or list at the BL.

Basic copyright is 75 years, so should be possible to share any photo that we believe is from that time.

My belief is that none of the carriages in the 38 train would have been around in 1888 in ECJS usage, and certainly based on the
way in which ECJS carriages were cascaded down to the GNR and then those articulated, it is probably more likely that all the
carriages in this specific train were later ex GNR carriages, and not specifically the same as the ECJS running number of 1888.

terry and I will talk about it and make our suggestions in the next day or so.

Paul

[1H was 2E]

I may have a spare copy of the relevant RO to spare - I've recently bought a run of bound ROs making my loose copies redundant - and if I locate it (in the heaps!) you may have it - send me a pm.

[65447]

Basic copyright is 75 years, so should be possible to share any photo that we believe is from that time.
Paul

Wrong - copyright in a photograph taken before 1st June 1957 expires 70 years after the death of the photographer, or 50 years after it was taken if the photograph is subject to crown copyright. Ergo it is quite possible that even a photograph taken in 1938 is still subject to copyright.

In fact in no instance is the period of 75 years relevant in copyright law.

Source - The National Archives - Copyright and Related Rights

[dlester]

Sorry for the delay in responding: I was going to take it easy getting back into work this week after a month off to recover from pneumonia.

However, we now find that my project co-leader has gone down with the same thing, and we've got a lot of business to transact this month.

I will try to put together my discoveries this w/e, but I've got a research paper to write (and do the research for!) by Wednesday next week!

Thanks for the responses so far.

Dave Lester

[john coffin]

Thanks for the data re copyright, but for instance in music there are varying dates, including one of 75 years.
However, i guess, I took it from the 75 year rule for many government papers.

I will try to see where our research at the GNRS has led us too.
Paul

[Bill Bedford]

Basic copyright is 75 years, so should be possible to share any photo that we believe is from that time.
Paul

Wrong - copyright in a photograph taken before 1st June 1957 expires 70 years after the death of the photographer, or 50 years after it was taken if the photograph is subject to crown copyright. Ergo it is quite possible that even a photograph taken in 1938 is still subject to copyright.

In fact in no instance is the period of 75 years relevant in copyright law.

Source - The National Archives - Copyright and Related Rights

Except where the first copyright owner was a corporate body, and then the copyright lasts for 70 years after the work was first published. So, for instance, this rule would apply to any advertisement first displayed before 1944. It also mean that is you find a photo in a pre-1944 magazine where the copyright is ascribed to the LNER then it will be out of copyright, but good luck finding a version that has not been screened for publication.