Please excuse me if this subject has already been discussed on this forum. I couldn't find it using the search facility.
From another thread:-
Mick B - Lovely model (4472's tender). If LNER period? the Buffers Bodies should be Black.
Greenglade - Thanks Mick... I hear what your saying but I'm not entirely convinced that this was always the case.. some B&W photo's certainly look as if they could be red and then you have the preserved LNER livery loco's out there that seem to be in both colours not that this is any guarantee of authenticity. For now red will do me and if I do decide to go black it's a very quick change to do.
I was worried about this subject recently. A thorough look through 'LNER Locomotives in Colour 1936-1948' - White and Johnston - appears to show some inconsistencies.
For the most part green engines seem to have black buffer housings. Black engines appear to vary, with Darlington apparently using red, while Doncaster, Gorton and Stratford appear to have used black.
There doesn't seem to be a mention in RCTS Vol 1.
HM Lanes photographs of North Eastern Area locomotives in White and Johnston's book are quite clear, and support this analysis.
However:-
There is one picture on page 12 of a B16/1 in 1937, which might just have black housings - or is it just dirt?
On page 77 is an illustration of a nearly new Darlington B1 No.1018 which appears (to my eyes) to have red buffer housings.
Could anyone with first-hand knowledge (or more pictures and better eyes) support this analysis?
I'd also like a definitive answer to this question although suspect that it may elude us.... from what I've researched green loco's seem to have black buffer housings ( I've not seen any in red) and some black loco's seem to have both. Same seems to be for tenders and has continued in today's preserved railways, there are many photo's that show red buffers on preserved LNER loco tenders. I have even been looking into software that converts B&W to colour although it's not as straight forward as it seems... I plan to ask some colleagues in the film industry who may have better software and certainly more understanding of the process to see if they can help. Mind you with the amount of old B&W films being converted to colour these days perhaps the question will be answered for us..
The official painting instructions specify black housings for green locos, I'm almost sure. Whether individual works did different things with black ones I'm less sure - or was it a case of replacement housings being black 'off the shelf', or even confusion when formerly green locos were painted black? I've always stuck to black ones on green locos and red ones on black locos, whether the latter were lined or not.
On page 79 of Yeadon's, Vol. 20, there is a picture of the Q4 that I am in the process of modelling. The picture is of the tender rear which has a red buffer beam and black buffer housings. The picture was taken at Gorton on 13th March 1948, the overall colour of the engine is black, under all the grime.
It was entirely a works thing. Darlington continued to paint buffer stocks red throughout on green and black locos. Doncaster, Stratford and Gorton painted them black with or without lining depending on the loco colour, and Inverurie just to be different painted them red but without lining viz the A1s that were overhauled there prior to the concentration at Doncaster.
It is covered in RCTS LOTLNER in several places.
Also watch out for ex NER locos which had quite comprehensive lining on the red ends of buffer beams with green livery throughout.
2512silverfox wrote: Darlington continued to paint buffer stocks red throughout on green and black locos.
Nick, that does not seem right to me for the 1930s. It may be true for a period post-war, perhaps into the BR period without a full repaint.
Darlington painted buffer housings black on green liveried in the 1930s, from the evidence I have.
I have not used black and white images to form the above statement, because it is impossible to state whether a buffer beam and housings are all red. It is sometimes possible to detect red bufferbeam and black housings, but never all red with certainty.
That info was from interviews with both Doncaster and Darlington paint shop foremen in the late 60s. Both had started on the railway at about time of Grouping. It is pretty well backed up by photographic evidence, certainly on all the official photos for which I produced notes for the NRM in the 70s and 80s.
Thank you 2512Silverfox, it's good to hear of real evidence as to actual practice.
In the book I mentioned above (LNER Locomotives in colour), there do not appear to be any black Darlington-painted locomotives with black housings.
However, as regards green engines, was there a change during or just after WWII?
HM Lane pictures of a C7 (page 24) and C6 (page 55) are clearly painted green with black housings, as are the D49s (pages 40 and 41). The splendid V2 4826 in page 64 built April 1939, not only has green cylinder covers, but also black buffer housings.
On page 75 is B1 1029 built at Darlington in June 1947. The 'photo is also dated June 1947, and the cylinder covers and buffer housings are both black lined red.
However, the post-war green J71 8286 on page 76 not only has the splendid lined buffer-beam-ends you mention, but also red buffer housings.
Also, A1 60151 'Midlothian' pictured on page 127 of PJ Coster's 'Book of the A1 and A2 Pacifics', although in monochrome, does clearly show red housings on an LNER green engine, even if it does have 'British Railways' on the tender.
So, does this suggest that not only were there differences between works, but that practices at Darlington did change over time?
Personally I think there may have been differences but as to why I have no idea. I'm building 4472 as she was in late 30's I have a photo of her when she was fitted with her new streamlined tender that views her from the rear and the buffers certainly look lighter than black especially when compared with items close by that are known to be black. However it's still an old photo with quality far inferior to what we get today so the buffer housings may well be black but it doesn't look like it to me and some others. Now I'm talking about the tender alone here as I have no doubt at all that the engine herself has black housings, black tends to stand out very well against red even in B&W photo's, perhaps her new tender then was from Darlington, I'll need to check as I've forgotten now although something is ringing in my head about this possibility.
All good fun this researching though... makes the hobby more enjoyable for me...
Don't know if this helps, but there is a good 'photo on Page 94 of Geoffrey Hughes' biography of Sir Nigel Gresley, showing the rear of the corridor tender of 2580 Shotover just after hauling the first up non-stop 'Flying Scotsman' (train).
It's dated 1st May 1928, and the buffer housings (although it's a black and white photograph) are clearly black against a much lighter buffer-beam.
I agree..4472's corridor tender buffer housings were without doubt painted black, I'm building her as late thirties when she was fitted with a new stream lined tender for which I have a photo although will be the first to admit that the position of the light source is not in the best of places....interestingly fig 11 in rcts 2A shows 4476 with a corridor tender which to my eye looks like her tender has red buffers. It's never easy trying to put colour to a B&W photo but sometimes you get lucky with the light in the right place thus reducing chances of bad light obstructing ones view. To me the light in Fig 11 is perfectly placed to show whether there is any difference in colour between buffer beam and housings, especially when you look at many other photo's with good light where black housings are easily spotted against the red buffer beam.
