3D printed Y7

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Brack
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3D printed Y7

Post by Brack »

Hi, I'm afraid I'm normally more of a narrow gauge modeller (very narrow gauge - 15"-18" in 7mm/ft) but for whatever reason a little flutter in 00 took my fancy. I may or may not ever build a layout to go with it, but I did convert a parkside 21T hopper to have opening hopper doors a year or two back, and I'm always tempted by something industrial/NCB ish (since I'm unlikely to build a set of staithes and a collier).

Anyway, I've made a few locos available in O9 through 3D printing, and have begun work on a Y7 (neither kit is currently available). I'm planning on producing a 3D printed chassis block for it too (just slot in bearings/wheels and add a gearbox).

I haven't done the cab interior yet, and there's still a way to go, but its starting to capture the look of the thing:
Image

Looking at photos of both in service and the two preserved locos there's quite a bit of variation in terms of pipework, lubricators etc so I'm going for a generic model. I'm using the RM July72 drawings (which have a couple of errors in them - the Cab is taller in the side elevation than in the front/rear elevations among others - took a little while to work out why things weren't fitting together properly in the CAD until I realised). Any advice/suggestions gratefully received at this stage. Once finished it will be made available if anyone else wants one (pricewise it'll be £50-60 for body and chassis, and you'll need to bother Alan Gibson for wheels and other bits - the plan is to use terrier con rods cut down). Should it be successful I might be tempted to look at the Y8 drawings as well...

I have a plan to fit it with radio control as well, but thats another story (and might need to wait until the bank balance is healthier).
jwealleans
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Re: 3D printed Y7

Post by jwealleans »

There have been a number of 3D printing threads on here and elsewhere. I'm sure Bill Bedford will have a comment to make so I'll leave that aspect of it to those who have actually dealt with the medium. My main reservation would be whether you can make something heavy enough to be able to move anything else on a layout.
Brack
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Re: 3D printed Y7

Post by Brack »

I've produced a few narrow gauge locos and chassis blocks which work well (my first 3d printed loco was featured in January's ng&irm). They weight issue is easily solved using lead shot - there's a lot of space inside the body and between the frames compared to my o9 locos, and it'd mostly just be shunting a few wagons back and forth.
In terms of detail/finish, I leave off the rivets so you can smooth the surface properly using 1600 grit paper and very fine filler. Rivets (not that there are too many on a y7) are added using archer transfers.
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Coronach
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Re: 3D printed Y7

Post by Coronach »

It's interesting and I'd be up for one in due course if the chassis is EM-able!

Dave.
"If they say it's good, we know it's bad; if they say it's bad, we know it's good." - Jimmy Reid.
Brack
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Re: 3D printed Y7

Post by Brack »

progress crawls everlastingly onwards...

Image

I went a little off-piste here as the smokebox doors on both preserved locos (which seem to have different curvature) both have strapping that only goes to the centre of the door and is closer together than that shown on the drawing, so I've gone with the two real locos I've seen.

I've put the frames on, and some dummy wheels to show where they'd be, plus a bit fo detailing on the front (and the cylinder fronts below the footplate where you'll never see them... I once spent several hours designing and redesigning bits for backhead and inside cab of an O9 loco, which you can't see anyway as it has an enclosed cab. One guy bought two, then 6 months later took a photo of one and sent me a message to say he hadn't noticed the handwheel before. I asked if he'd noticed the pipework, pressure gauge and stopcocks - he had to go and look again!)

As for the chassis being EM-able, once the CAD is drawn it'd simply be a matter of pulling the frames out a touch for EM, P4 or even Irish Broad gauge should it take someones fancy...

Now, anyone know how the sandboxes attach to the frames? I think I've drawn them OK, but they're miles off the frames and I can't work out from photos what ought to be behind them (the black preserved Y7 I notice has a step fixed to its front sandbox - I'm glad there's so many variations - increases the probability that my model might be correct for one loco at some point in its life).
auldreekie
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Re: 3D printed Y7

Post by auldreekie »

Fancy meeting you here!

That looks really promising. If I had my copy of the green bible with me, I'd try to use it to answer your detailed questions: if meanwhile others do not do so, I shall try to remember to respond in about 3 weeks' time.

For me, pity it's NER. Now, I'd be a sucker for pretty well anything NBR that might take your fancy...



auldreekie
Bill Bedford
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Re: 3D printed Y7

Post by Bill Bedford »

jwealleans wrote:There have been a number of 3D printing threads on here and elsewhere. I'm sure Bill Bedford will have a comment to make so I'll leave that aspect of it to those who have actually dealt with the medium.
Not me mate, I'm still trying to work out how to make saleable products from this stuff.
auldreekie
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Re: 3D printed Y7

Post by auldreekie »

Aw, c'mON Mr Bedford. Some of us have purchased, eg, your O4 conversion moulding and made a decent locomotive from it. Agreed, it has its imperfections, but so has every other technology which might be applied. Surely there are two broad strategies for dealing with this: (i) for the designer - doing the design work with an eye to minimising the impact of the known deficiencies of the production technology; (ii) for the user of the product - not expecting everything to be done for you and accordingly taking remedial action where needed.

And I would not wish anyone reading this to be anything other than encouraged to try one of your 3d printed products. I am PLEASED with the outcome: it's only "decent" rather than "superb" because of my own deficiencies as a modeller and the limited amount of time I gave myself to complete the job.


auldreekie
Brack
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Re: 3D printed Y7

Post by Brack »

NBR stuff... you'd not be able to produce something much bigger than this economically (due to the square-cube law, if you did something twice as big, your volume (ie. cost) is 8 times greater). For something like a Y7 or the small 7mm NG locos I've been doing, I can keep the price down to £40-60 per loco, which is something people will not think twice about paying. the difficulty is that a goods van (I'm working on some 4mm scale CIE cement Bubbles) costs a similar amount, which most people tend not to want to pay. You can try to use cheaper, lower resolution processes, but the results aren't worth it really.

Whenever I mention 3D printing someone tells me they've seen some of those, and the surface finish wasn't good enough. I agree - many of the 3D printed models I see aren't. But I'd like to think my locos show that you can do a decent job if you think it through.

The concept of print it and plonk it on the layout is wrong, in my opinion. Even in FUD the body will need a little bit of a rub down to smooth out the minimal layering there'll be. However, if you built a whitemetal/plastic/brass kit without filling, fettling or sanding it wouldn't look too good either. As an unskilled modeller, the big advantages are being able to produce chimneys, domes and other fittings easily and cheaply (I don't have a lathe), and the ability to produce a chassis/mechanism to any wheelbase I want.

Anyway, back to the Y7... I'm currently drawing up the cab steps. They'll be slightly thicker than I'd like for strength, and probably still a little fragile (but fine if you're handling it like a model, not a bouncy ball). I'm wondering if It might be better to leave it off and build them out of brass sheet - wouldn't be too hard (I can make a paper template from the CAD file)
auldreekie
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Re: 3D printed Y7

Post by auldreekie »

Brack,

That insight on costs is very interesting indeed, and it may well be a major contributing factor to Bill Bedford's present position (?). Indeed, given what you say, I'm surprised that his O4/5 conversion is for sale at the price quoted, since it is just a little larger than a Y7. Otherwise, I could not (as a probably pretty "average" modeller) agree more with what you say.

Oh, and while I'm at it, a range of 3D printed (or, come to that, resin-cast) NBR chimneys, domes, and possibly other fitments otherwise demanding of lathe skills, in sizes and heights varied to suit the various classes of locomotive, MIGHT have a market, although I'm sure it would never make a fortune for the producer.


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Re: 3D printed Y7

Post by 52D »

Brack, a nice Y9 to fit on Smokey Joe Chassis please.
Hi interested in the area served by 52D. also researching colliery wagonways from same area.
Brack
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Re: 3D printed Y7

Post by Brack »

I thought smokey joe pretty much was a Y9 (ish)? would you need a full body, surely just a new cab, chimney, safety valve cover and buffers would do the job (and maybe a tank filler?)...

wait until I'm finished the Y7, then I'll think about it. I don't actually have one of those beasties, or any drawings.
Bill Bedford
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Re: 3D printed Y7

Post by Bill Bedford »

auldreekie wrote:That insight on costs is very interesting indeed, and it may well be a major contributing factor to Bill Bedford's present position (?). Indeed, given what you say, I'm surprised that his O4/5 conversion is for sale at the price quoted, since it is just a little larger than a Y7. Otherwise, I could not (as a probably pretty "average" modeller) agree more with what you say.
Lets put a different slant on the cost thing. I had a brake van printed a couple of years ago, just to see how one if it was possible to print the hand rails in place(it was at the time and some are still in place). Now you can get a RTR brake van for around £10-12, and a injection moulded kit of one for about the same price. An etched brass kit will cost anything between £20 and £35. However the printed parts for my brake van cost me over £50 to which had to be added etchings, a couple of other parts and a markup. So direct marketing of 3D prints, even at Shapeways' prices is just not commercially viable.

As for my earlier comments, I've found that with the things I've been doing I can get so far and then I find that I really should have approached from a different direction. For instance, it is possible to print rivets, but if the face the rivets are on has to be sanded then the rivet definition is lost. So I end up with a choice of splitting the model so that riveted faces are horizontal or applying the rivets after the piece has been sanded.
Oh, and while I'm at it, a range of 3D printed (or, come to that, resin-cast) NBR chimneys, domes, and possibly other fitments otherwise demanding of lathe skills, in sizes and heights varied to suit the various classes of locomotive, MIGHT have a market, although I'm sure it would never make a fortune for the producer.
Sorry, I only want to do full locos, and without having lots of bits to fit to the bodies.
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Re: 3D printed Y7

Post by john coffin »

One of the major problems with any of these ideas is getting accurate details to initially draw for instance a chimney, but also doing the transitions where the chimney fits the boiler. There is quite a lot available for the GNR, but NBR, who has any drawings for that, either smokebox door, or chimney and domes?

3d Printing is in reality only a prototyping facility at this time, and should imho be considered as a stage toward producing things for casting or reproducing in another material. We do not yet know or understand the long term life of the plastic used.

In many ways we are where resin casting was 30 years ago where the French were the experts, if my experience with model racing cars is anything to go by, to now where many in the UK have the skill and materials too.

Personally the problem with producing a whole loco body with 3d printing is the lack of overall balance between strength and thicknesses and economic production. There are parts of a loco that can be produced using the process, but some other parts should I feel still be made by other means, you can now actually use glues for joining many materials together.

Paul
Brack
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Re: 3D printed Y7

Post by Brack »

Warning - big rambling post ahead! (including non-standard images which some may find disturbing)
body is pretty much finished - some (very) rudimentary backhead detail (you'll struggle to see much with the crew in, plus it'd be fragile if I drew it properly and likely to be rejected by Shapeways' very inconsistent button pressers.
Image
Steps are printed, but I've put a bit of reinforcing on the back.

Holes for handrail knobs/pipes are put in place, they might need drilling out a touch (better to be a little small than too big) but at least they'll be in the right places and level! The little bit of beading around the cab opening presents a particular problem, especially where it affixes to the top of the cab handrails. My solution is to use microstrip once I've threaded the handrails (0.4mm brass rod) through. It'd be too fragile if I printed it on without the handrail, and the handrail itself would be pretty fragile if printed. I've always left off rivets and handrails, preferring to add them afterwards so you can smooth the surface (seems to be the same conclusion Mr Bedford has come to). Whilst you CAN print everything in place, it'll be hard to avoid breaking small bits off.

I'm waiting on gears and wheels to finish the chassis off.

Paul/John Coffin -I can do transitions and shapes pretty well, but getting accurate drawings is the trick (and photos, if you can find them - often you draw it 'correct' but it doesn't look it, so I try to tweak until it looks right from all angles, the advantage of being able to render the CAD model and spin it around).

Here is a set of 550mm gauge Couillet/Decauville loco fittings (the various transitions on these were as hard as anything I've tried, but they came out beautifully, did these for a friend in the netherlands):
Image

This is my little Bagnall Sipat. The loco is 6cm long in 7mm/ft scale, smaller than the Y7 (its probably over twice it's actual size on your screen)! The finish is good enough for me (looks worse than it is due to the noise from the poor light conditions - roy link's photos in NG&IRM are much better), and the transitions/curves on the chimney and safety valve bonnet are spot on to the manufacturers drawings (I printed elevations from CAD and overlaid them to check):
Image

and yes, I did tidy up the rear bufferbeam afterwards!

The point isn't to show off my previous models - I probably do lots of things the wrong way as I taught myself CAD - went from never having opened a CAD program to finishing Sipat in 6 weeks of spare time, but that the quality IS good enough for models, and that it provides a way to produce prototypes which are obscure enough that they'd never be commercially viable in any other material/medium. Whilst it isn't a mass production method, I have sold over 40 locos in the last year (which surprised me - there aren't many of us modelling 18" gauge), and not needing to keep stock or spend my time casting/packaging is great. It won't make me rich, but it makes my hobby pay for itself without any major effort or time from me.

The Y7 is a different matter, it clearly is a viable prototype (there were 2 kits in production for a good length of time), but I quite fancied one (may have been a delayed reaction from visits to Tanfield/Beamish last year) and I figured I could produce something which others might want as there isn't anything on the market at the minute in 4mm/ft. A bigger loco wouldn't be viable, and as Bill has said, rolling stock would cost the same or more than a loco. In time I expect that the situation will improve.

Anyway, the top bit is done, the chassis just needs a bit of fiddling, but I like to draw my gears/motors in CAD to check they fit and produce a mounting for them. No plans for compensation for now, perhaps in the future I'll have a play.
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