Wartime A3 with German type smoke deflectors ???

[Meg Merrilies]

There's currently a Hornby 'Scotsman' in Wartime Black (numbered 502) with corridor tender being offered for pre-order and the promotional photo shows it wearing German type smoke deflectors.
Did A3s from that time period ever wear these (or any other type of smoke deflectors)? ~ or am I missing something . . . is this configuration something that is presently going on at the NRM?

Heres how it looks in the photo >

[60800]

FS was (almost) in that condition at railfest, and at present looks like this;

copyright Joseph Jacob Dowse 2012

I believe the model will come with the deflectors in a detail pack, so with a tender swap and removal of the speedo and other modern gubbins, I presume the loco could be correct for 2751 Humorist with a GNR tender in tow

[mick b]

You would have to remove the Double chimney and there will be mounting holes for the Smoke deflectors too which will have to be filled . The Tender is only good for wartime A4's.
A lot easier to buy a single chimney BR version with correct tender and respray.
No idea why Hornby have bothered with this one? totally wrong on so many counts, all it is a replica of FS when it almost reappeared from its rebuild.
The NRM couldnt even get the bufferbeam layout numbering in its correct position and added they different running numbers on the cab as well.

One for FS fans, no idea who or why?? anyone else would want one

[Saint Johnstoun]

This is why I am very much against the NRM displaying FS in wartime black with post 1959 fittings.

It re-writes history so that the unknowing think that the loco was like that during the war!

I will say this only once!Only Humorist (2751 later 60097) had a double chimney pre-war and was fitted with A1 style deflectors in May 1947. The German type deflectors first appeared on 60049 Galtee More and were subsequently fitted to most of the others.

Hornby are just as guilty for modelling a historically inaccurate prototype. If the NRM wanted to sell a wartime black 4472 then they should have asked Hornby to produce a model which was accurate for the period.

Even the tender ain't right as the A3s/A1s all lost their corridor tenders to A4s before the war!

[JASd17]

SJ,

I totally agree.

John

[Saint Johnstoun]

This would be going too far but to me it could be constrained as a contravention of the Trades Descriptions Act to offer something for sale which is not correct!

Problem is that with the NRM no longer in the hands of Railway People the Museums and Marketing Culture has taken over and to hell with historical accuracy!

And we the taxpayers are going to have to foot the bill to sort out the mess that 4472 got into whilst under 'restoration'!

It would have been cheaper to build a replica of 1470 in original condition methinks!

[S.A.C. Martin]

SJ, I respect you a lot, but I think you're missing the bigger picture (although I think you have a point about accuracy).

If we were going to be totally correct about 4472's livery specification against its physical form, we would have to remember that at no point since Alan Pegler took delivery of it in 1964, has Flying Scotsman ever been entirely authentic to a specific condition in its actual service life. Not once - there are no exceptions. She has never been an authentic LNER A3 or British Railways A3.

Example: when outshopped by Doncaster at its first preservation era overhaul, it had a single chimney, A3 boiler, corridor tender and all in LNER livery with red nameplates (which it had never carried, as far as I can make out, during its service life).

This condition is probably closest to its post war, pre nationalisation form and actually was marred by the corridor tender, as 4472 had never pulled one whilst an A3 prior to that overhaul. If anything, 4472 would have had to have been numbered 103, or 60103 with British Railways on the side for an accurate portrayal of the locomotive's physical form, with the apple green livery.

Do we say that the corridor tender is an example of a compromise between historical accuracy, and operational advantage? if yes, then we accept that 4472's specification of LNER livery, single chimney, A3 boiler, corridor tender, is not accurate but a reasonable compromise for the form. Sir William McAlpine made the locomotive somewhat closer to its LNER form by restoring the black nameplates, a minor detail.

4472 was then taken further away from her A3 form by the fitting of the A4 boiler - correct for some other A3 Pacifics, but not for her, and this was done in the Waterman era (I do not know if he took the final decision on that). The BR Green livery was again, anachronistic - she had never had a corridor tender whilst in BR Green, nor did she have the smokebox door type they depicted when they put the double chimney and smoke deflectors on.

60103 had a split handrail, lower lamp iron, with smokebox numberplate on the upper smokebox door strap when in service: she was depicted with a different and inaccurate arrangement, with the smokebox numberplate higher and with a full handrail.

There are literally dozens of further details I am sure that means that no "restoration" of 4472 has been entirely accurate throughout her preservation career.

If you want to have a go at anyone, have a go at the people who kept the A4 boiler on, kept the double chimney, and kept the smoke deflectors last time around. 4472 was sold to the NRM without the single chimney or blastpipe, things we know that were present (albeit, worn and or damaged when sold into Marchington's ownership), so the NRM had no choice but to keep the status quo - bar the use of the spare A3 boiler, which actually makes her more authentic than she was when she was last overhauled!

They have always said that the wartime black livery was a bit of fun with a serious edge to it - intended entirely for her running in trials (why would you fully paint her for running in trials? Wartime black had not been seen on any LNER Pacific until Scotsman wore it, so whilst not correct physically, it was at the very least a fair stab at portraying something which did happen with the locomotive they have) with LNER apple green livery to be applied after all teething troubles sorted - and we have to remember that the smoke deflectors are an operational requirement with the double chimney fitted.

The NRM have had their hands tied from day one. Apple green has to be first after wartime black - she's best known in that livery! Of course, with the A4 boiler restored, the only livery which would be correct for the locomotive's physical form is BR Green livery, but as I have said previously, is wrong for the tender she pulls. So what do you do to make her authentic? You have to compromise on something, somewhere, which is what the NRM has had to do.

It's only a coat of paint after all - there's more pressing matters with her authenticity such as the type of tender, single or double chimney and the smokebox door type when in whatever livery is chosen.

As for the models - clearly ordered by the NRM as a special edition for them to sell in their shops, and for which Hornby has offered lots to other retailers. Nature of the "brand" I'm afraid. It commemorates a special event. I am unsure it is fair to put the onus on Hornby for making a model which was ordered from them, in that spec - and equally I don't think it's fair to lambast the NRM when the situation regarding physical form and livery is not as clear cut and simple to solve as it first appears.

Frankly, the NRM have done more to make her authentic than any of her past owners, and have inherited the problem of a locomotive well known in apple green, but having a BR Dark Green physical form. C'est la vie...

As for building a new one - I can't say that I think building a replica of Great Northern would attract quite the funds from the general public that rebuilding 4472 has done. At least I can say - with confidence - that despite the setbacks, and the problems, and the drama, and the despair, 4472 when finally completed, will be in the best shape she has been in since 1964. That will definitely be worth waiting for. And she'll be at her most authentic since before the turn of the century!

I'll get off my soapbox now.

[2002EarlMarischal]

Sadly 4472 is the only surviving representative of the Gresley A1/3 class. Personally I don't have too much of a problem with the loco being a concoction of A1/3 features which are relevant to the class in general though not Flying Scotsman in particular. If the NRM incorporated non A1/3 features that would be a different matter.

Aesthetically I find it hard to beat the combination of banjo done and single chimney, in LNER green of course.

[2562]

It's hard to deny that Flying Scotsman has developed a life beyond historical reality and has appeared in many inaccurate guises over the years.

It may be hard to swallow but live steam is important and Flying Scotsman is a celebrity that draws the crowds and might even lead a few to look deeper.

[Horsetan]

.....with the A4 boiler restored.....

This is academic now, as the Diag.107 boiler is no longer available; it was sold off (by the NRM!) for £30k to Jeremy Hosking, who wanted it as a spare for his own A4. I think he got a bargain.....

I wonder if Mr. Hosking might dare to ask the NRM whether they might one day consider selling "Flying Scotsman" to him, taking the albatross - because that's what she has become - off their necks. After all, he seems to own a fair proportion of the mainline-certified engines these days. Or would it be a bridge too far

[S.A.C. Martin]

.....with the A4 boiler restored.....

This is academic now, as the Diag.107 boiler is no longer available; it was sold off (by the NRM!) for £30k to Jeremy Hosking, who wanted it as a spare for his own A4.

If you want to have a go at anyone, have a go at the people who kept the A4 boiler on, kept the double chimney, and kept the smoke deflectors last time around. 4472 was sold to the NRM without the single chimney or blastpipe, things we know that were present (albeit, worn and or damaged when sold into Marchington's ownership), so the NRM had no choice but to keep the status quo - bar the use of the spare A3 boiler, which actually makes her more authentic than she was when she was last overhauled!

I think I covered that, more or less. I don't think I actually said "with the A4 boiler restored" without referring to the previous owners, not the current owners, whom I said a few times above have actually restored 4472 and made her authentic by the use of the A3 boiler.

I think he got a bargain.....

Possibly did: but the NRM were right to restore the A3 boiler and right to sell off the A4 boiler, in my view.

[Saint Johnstoun]

You are forgetting of course that a number of A3s ran with Diagram 107 (A4) boilers in their later years albeit pressed to 220psi. Where the damage was done to FS was Marchington pressing the boiler to 250psi and boring out the cylinders, a legacy which has now come to haunt the NRM in its restoration attempts by placing undue strain on the frames.

[S.A.C. Martin]

You are forgetting of course that a number of A3s ran with Diagram 107 (A4) boilers in their later years albeit pressed to 220psi. Where the damage was done to FS was Marchington pressing the boiler to 250psi and boring out the cylinders, a legacy which has now come to haunt the NRM in its restoration attempts by placing undue strain on the frames.

I'd not forgot it, but it's a fact that 4472 never had an A4 boiler fitted while she was in service with BR. What is authentic for those few was not authentic for her. Past owners used the A4 boiler - it appears to have seen first use at the end of the 80s, after her Australian tour, and as you say, the damage has been done.

I should point out that this month's Heritage Railway has an article on Roland Kennington, who did all of those modifications for Marchington at the last overhaul. It makes an interesting read, however the cost of the overhaul has a question mark hanging over it for me.

[Saint Johnstoun]

Over the years I've seen a number of artefacts from the transport world 'destroyed' by preservationists who want to do things with them beyond what their real capabilities were.
The danger always is to want to make something 'better' that it was when it was in everyday use and there's the rub!

[Horsetan]

Over the years I've seen a number of artefacts from the transport world 'destroyed' by preservationists who want to do things with them beyond what their real capabilities were.
The danger always is to want to make something 'better' that it was when it was in everyday use and there's the rub!

That would suggest David Wardale's work, using L.D. Porta's principles, were all in vain.