Over the years I have built a number of locos for my 1950s OO layout that have subsequently been covered by Bachmann or Hornby, much to my chagrin, as I could have chosen more obscure prototypes and increased the variety of my stud. These include an Ivatt Mucky Duck, an A5, a K3, a WD 2-8-0, a B1.
I have built three that have not been covered yet. I have upgraded a Hornby Shire into a reasonable Hunt. I have a J25 and a Midland 3F. So only 3 out of 8 that I have built are currently not available RTR.
Having seen that the recently announced releases for 2007 do not include any NER prototypes (as expected), I can now decide on what kit to buy next and at least I may get it finished before seeing an RTR equivalent released.
I propose a poll: which loco is the most unlikely to appear in RTR form from the following list of locos that I saw around York, and why:
1. B16 in any variety.
2. J27
3. Q6
4. A8
5. G5
I am not only looking for reasons why the two major manufacturers would not choose any of the above. If you think that any of them could be covered, please tell me why.
Really York needs a B16.
Colombo
Which locos are least likely to appear in RTR form?
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jwealleans
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I'd go with you on the B16 (in any form). The A8 is probably the next least likely to appear.
The J27 and Q6 are possibilities as there seems to be a murmur for goods locomotives and both, of course, still exist. My money on the most likely to appear would be an ROD as it has the widest potential for liveries and area of operation.
Is there an RTR A5?
I don't know OTTOMH what the chassis differences are between a G5/G6 and M7 but I suppose it's a possibility now Hornby have the basis. Long shot though.
I don't know whether you avoid the larger locos as I try to do, but what about the Thompson pacifics? Ugly, in my opinion, but very much part of the ECML scene in the 1950s and relegated to secondary services and fast freights so you don't need room for 16 coach expresses to justify them. I think DJH and PDK between them cover the whole range. I'd be astonished if any of the RTR boys went for those.
Did any of the GNR family of 0-6-0s make it this far north in the 1950s? Again I'd say an unlikely subject for H/B, as they were too geographically restricted and the varieties in loco and tender make them a bit of a minefield. Very pretty locos as well - I would like one or two of those.
NER 4-4-0s I suspect are also safe ground for you; at least the D20s went on into the 1950s, did they not? I have a DJH example awaiting painting for a club colleague and it's made a very nice model. The D21 also crops up from time to time but I don't know whether they lasted post-war.
Still, if we can see Falcon and Lord of the Isles appear there isn't really any prototype too obscure, is there? Who'd be a kit manufacturer these days?
The J27 and Q6 are possibilities as there seems to be a murmur for goods locomotives and both, of course, still exist. My money on the most likely to appear would be an ROD as it has the widest potential for liveries and area of operation.
Is there an RTR A5?
I don't know OTTOMH what the chassis differences are between a G5/G6 and M7 but I suppose it's a possibility now Hornby have the basis. Long shot though.
I don't know whether you avoid the larger locos as I try to do, but what about the Thompson pacifics? Ugly, in my opinion, but very much part of the ECML scene in the 1950s and relegated to secondary services and fast freights so you don't need room for 16 coach expresses to justify them. I think DJH and PDK between them cover the whole range. I'd be astonished if any of the RTR boys went for those.
Did any of the GNR family of 0-6-0s make it this far north in the 1950s? Again I'd say an unlikely subject for H/B, as they were too geographically restricted and the varieties in loco and tender make them a bit of a minefield. Very pretty locos as well - I would like one or two of those.
NER 4-4-0s I suspect are also safe ground for you; at least the D20s went on into the 1950s, did they not? I have a DJH example awaiting painting for a club colleague and it's made a very nice model. The D21 also crops up from time to time but I don't know whether they lasted post-war.
Still, if we can see Falcon and Lord of the Isles appear there isn't really any prototype too obscure, is there? Who'd be a kit manufacturer these days?
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rob
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Without being too cynical,I imagine that by about 2040 there may be an 04(that will be next)and possibly the J27 and a J37 because the rtr manufactuters have correctly identified 1965 to 1968 as the key market.In a sense it might have been better for the hobby if they had kept the detail at Bachmann Branchline standards and just produced more prototypes,allowing the modeller add more detail if required.The fact is that it is still impossible to put a realistic stud together from RTR as production is still concentrating on the express or large freight types,though Bachmann are better than Hornby.Watch with dismay as Hornby add the D49 and B17,then upgrade the J52 and J83,and maybe introduce an 0.6.0,which will probably be something like a J20/3 and useless to pre-war modellers.Bachmann are the best bet,at least they have done a good WD and the 9F-I think they would produce an O4 as a slow burner,it will also sell to some of those strange GWR people.
Difficult,though,if you want to model the inter-war LNER and don't kitbuild-in a sense I imagine some modellers are being propelled into the 60's who might prefer the 30's
I really see your frustration Colombo but rest assured your kitbuilt locos will outlive the r-t-r by centuries and they are a super reflection of your own outstanding craftsmanship-think how tough it is in the kit manufacturers,especially when they see their work being used as pre-production mockups!I also think you get a better overall effect by not mixing kit and r-t-r,or if you do you have spent so much time modifying the r-t-r and repainting you may as well have built!
Happy Christmas all!
Difficult,though,if you want to model the inter-war LNER and don't kitbuild-in a sense I imagine some modellers are being propelled into the 60's who might prefer the 30's
I really see your frustration Colombo but rest assured your kitbuilt locos will outlive the r-t-r by centuries and they are a super reflection of your own outstanding craftsmanship-think how tough it is in the kit manufacturers,especially when they see their work being used as pre-production mockups!I also think you get a better overall effect by not mixing kit and r-t-r,or if you do you have spent so much time modifying the r-t-r and repainting you may as well have built!
Happy Christmas all!
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Colombo
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JW,
You are quite right, I put the A5 in the wrong place, so I am at 50% coverage rather than 37.5. A bit less chagrin then. My logic in choosing an A5 was that there were a few in the North East and at the time I was modelling Richmond where they did appear. Also the Craftsman kit was highly recommended for a starter.
So if no one thinks that there is any chance of a B16, whose kit to buy? Has anybody built one? What did you think to the kit?
Years ago I looked at a DJH kit for a B16 and was put off by the state of the castings. What are they like nowadays? Or should I build a brass one?
My DJH WD, which I bought before The Bachmann was announced and I built long after, was quite good, although if I had not done major mods round the back of the cylinders it would have ended up far too wide. I had to fabricate a motion bracket as I could not find one in the kit.
It had to run better than the Bachmann, so I fitted a large motor and flywheel horizontally in the boiler with one of those Branchline Multiboxes with a 67:1 reduction. The firebox should be narrow, not like the Bachmann compromise, so my boiler has to slide off the cab and footplate to give access to the motor. To be different, I fitted mine with a Doncaster firebox and the cranked handrails on the side of the boiler where they rise over the wash out plugs.
York would not be York without a B16. I have to get one soon.
Colombo
You are quite right, I put the A5 in the wrong place, so I am at 50% coverage rather than 37.5. A bit less chagrin then. My logic in choosing an A5 was that there were a few in the North East and at the time I was modelling Richmond where they did appear. Also the Craftsman kit was highly recommended for a starter.
So if no one thinks that there is any chance of a B16, whose kit to buy? Has anybody built one? What did you think to the kit?
Years ago I looked at a DJH kit for a B16 and was put off by the state of the castings. What are they like nowadays? Or should I build a brass one?
My DJH WD, which I bought before The Bachmann was announced and I built long after, was quite good, although if I had not done major mods round the back of the cylinders it would have ended up far too wide. I had to fabricate a motion bracket as I could not find one in the kit.
It had to run better than the Bachmann, so I fitted a large motor and flywheel horizontally in the boiler with one of those Branchline Multiboxes with a 67:1 reduction. The firebox should be narrow, not like the Bachmann compromise, so my boiler has to slide off the cab and footplate to give access to the motor. To be different, I fitted mine with a Doncaster firebox and the cranked handrails on the side of the boiler where they rise over the wash out plugs.
York would not be York without a B16. I have to get one soon.
Colombo
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jwealleans
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I haven't built one but am surprised by what you say about the DJH one. The D20 I have had given to paint has made a lovely model. We have a B16/1 at the club which is DJH and it looks the part and runs well. I don't know who built it - I'll ask around after Christmas.
My own unbuilt D20 looks fine in terms of the quality of the castings but then I haven't actually started it yet.
Other than the Nu-Cast, what further choice do you have for one? DJH cover (I think) all the variations. Personally I shall build the DJH unrebuilt one - the models I have seen with the outside valve gear somehow don't look right. It all seems too cramped - perhaps the components are overscale.
My own unbuilt D20 looks fine in terms of the quality of the castings but then I haven't actually started it yet.
Other than the Nu-Cast, what further choice do you have for one? DJH cover (I think) all the variations. Personally I shall build the DJH unrebuilt one - the models I have seen with the outside valve gear somehow don't look right. It all seems too cramped - perhaps the components are overscale.
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Colombo
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JW,
The last D21 was withdrawn in 1946, which is a surprise considering that they were built 9 years after the first D20 was introduced. They were only a small class (10 locos) and surprisingly with a lower TE (17026 lbs) than the D20 (19,456 lbs). I like the D20, but all I ever recall of them is a cab in the scrap yard at Darlington. I started spotting in 1956 and maybe I saw the odd one at York and underlined them in my Locoshed book, but lacking an ABC, I did not know what they were.
I shall not build an D20, unless I find a cheap kit at a swap meet.
The motion on the B16 drives onto the front axle, this is why the rebuilt motion looks cramped compared with a B1.
Colombo
The last D21 was withdrawn in 1946, which is a surprise considering that they were built 9 years after the first D20 was introduced. They were only a small class (10 locos) and surprisingly with a lower TE (17026 lbs) than the D20 (19,456 lbs). I like the D20, but all I ever recall of them is a cab in the scrap yard at Darlington. I started spotting in 1956 and maybe I saw the odd one at York and underlined them in my Locoshed book, but lacking an ABC, I did not know what they were.
I shall not build an D20, unless I find a cheap kit at a swap meet.
The motion on the B16 drives onto the front axle, this is why the rebuilt motion looks cramped compared with a B1.
Colombo
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rob
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Hello Colombo,
I'm looking at a B16/1 by DJH right now and the castings are up to scratch-the boiler halves are top class,footplate very clear of feed nibs,in fact better than most.Metal quality is top notch,and I think its a very workable kit.On the downside the kit does show its age in that the chassis is just two oblongs of brass which look like they've been prepared by a kid in metalwork class,but they are accurate and robust. Some of the detail castings are fairly basic and there is no brake gear etc-this kit from the earlier series like the Q7,D20 and C7.It will make a fine B16 though would need a lot of extra work to match,say,a modern Hornby A3 in terms of fine detail.So quality wise,its very good,but technology wise it does represent the standards of about 25 years ago!While DJH supplied wheels it was very good value,though it adds up to a bit more now you have to buy them separately.
There was an etched kit due some years back,I remember an article in BRM about a test build but I don't know if it reached production.I think the kit possibly involved Stephen Barnfield.
Have to agree about the B16/2 and /3,there was an ungainly element about them,redolent of the Thompson pacifics,and the DJH kit for that looks less convincing than that for their B16/1.They lasted well in service though and overall the B16 was a very useful class which I certainly wouldn't be without on a layout.I gather that in LNER days they were quite well travelled too,and I would consider them quite handsome looking machines in that austere NER way.
I'm looking at a B16/1 by DJH right now and the castings are up to scratch-the boiler halves are top class,footplate very clear of feed nibs,in fact better than most.Metal quality is top notch,and I think its a very workable kit.On the downside the kit does show its age in that the chassis is just two oblongs of brass which look like they've been prepared by a kid in metalwork class,but they are accurate and robust. Some of the detail castings are fairly basic and there is no brake gear etc-this kit from the earlier series like the Q7,D20 and C7.It will make a fine B16 though would need a lot of extra work to match,say,a modern Hornby A3 in terms of fine detail.So quality wise,its very good,but technology wise it does represent the standards of about 25 years ago!While DJH supplied wheels it was very good value,though it adds up to a bit more now you have to buy them separately.
There was an etched kit due some years back,I remember an article in BRM about a test build but I don't know if it reached production.I think the kit possibly involved Stephen Barnfield.
Have to agree about the B16/2 and /3,there was an ungainly element about them,redolent of the Thompson pacifics,and the DJH kit for that looks less convincing than that for their B16/1.They lasted well in service though and overall the B16 was a very useful class which I certainly wouldn't be without on a layout.I gather that in LNER days they were quite well travelled too,and I would consider them quite handsome looking machines in that austere NER way.
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jwealleans
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I was talking to Steve Barnfield at York ( I have a D17 kit of his but no instructions). He did produce a B16 - and something else as well - but they're all out of production.
He did say he was talking to John Redrup about the possibility of him taking them on but I havent' seen anything in the press as yet to say it's gone through.
He did say he was talking to John Redrup about the possibility of him taking them on but I havent' seen anything in the press as yet to say it's gone through.
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rob
- GCR D11 4-4-0 'Improved Director'
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I thought I remembered his name in connection!I remember the D17,yes,I'd love one if they go back into production,and I'm pretty sure he did the G6/BTP and a J79 and Y4 for a while.Any idea does anyone do a BTP at the moment?Thats a good feature of etched kits,they can be passed from manufacturer to manufacturer quite easily and only require a few castings.London Road have a good few kits that came from other sources originally I think,good for them!
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Colombo
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JW
Thanks for reminding me about Steve Barnfield's brass kits. I may have seen him showing someone an example of a made up kit for a B16 at the Nottingham Exhibition in the Victoria Hall several years ago. Perhaps I should have taken more interest.
I shall have to think about whether to wait for an etched brass B16.
Colombo
Thanks for reminding me about Steve Barnfield's brass kits. I may have seen him showing someone an example of a made up kit for a B16 at the Nottingham Exhibition in the Victoria Hall several years ago. Perhaps I should have taken more interest.
I shall have to think about whether to wait for an etched brass B16.
Colombo
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jwealleans
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Don't Golden Arrow (or one of the other resin cast cottage industries) do both of those? No idea if they're realistic or not. DMR was also threatening a streamlined B17 - now his range has been bought up that may become a reality. The Hornby Toby is out of gauge.B17 streamliner ... or even a realistic J70
Rob - Dave Alexander does a G6.
Colombo - may be worth an email to John Redrup or have a chat at a show. He's a very nice approachable guy. If the Steve Barnfield deal hasn't come off he may be interested in developing it himself.
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karlrestall
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RTR
Hi
Dave Alexander does a G5 kit not a 6. Only ever heard of the NuCast kit.
W1 in rebuilt form well it looks like a stretched A4 who knows??!!
I have seen Golden Arrow mentioned on other forums , the pictures dont make them look upto much I am afraid.
They have resin bodies which doesnt lend itself well to 1/72 scale especially in cab sides and anything with a fine edge, much too small a scale.The resin is too brittle and wiil break at slightest pressure/knock.
Resin model sports cars are good in 1/43rd but thats another story!!
Mick
Dave Alexander does a G5 kit not a 6. Only ever heard of the NuCast kit.
W1 in rebuilt form well it looks like a stretched A4 who knows??!!
I have seen Golden Arrow mentioned on other forums , the pictures dont make them look upto much I am afraid.
They have resin bodies which doesnt lend itself well to 1/72 scale especially in cab sides and anything with a fine edge, much too small a scale.The resin is too brittle and wiil break at slightest pressure/knock.
Resin model sports cars are good in 1/43rd but thats another story!!
Mick