gnr tenders and some other facts

[john coffin]

hi, new here, and apologise for missing you before, however trawling the web for other stuff i came across the site and felt i might be able to help expand the knowledge base in some ways.

fyi, i am involved in providing the drawings for an intended publication on gnr tenders which has been mooted elsewhere here, and as such have some useful generic data which may well hold your enthusiasm to buy the book when published. in addition, i am involved in the production of some gnr loco and tender kits through London Road Models, and involved with terry henderson of the GNRS in researching more and more data about early gnr coaches. i cannot say my knowledge is definitive, but i may have some additional insights due to the practical and research efforts i have been putting in over the last 15 or so years.

1/ remember that most books on railways were produced with a specific agenda in mind, not least since BR or the original companies were still in existence when many were written. because the internet was not available, a lot of data was hidden, or not available. in addition it is worth remembering that the infamous O.S.Nock was working for much of the time he was writing the 140 something books he wrote, which means his interpretations may have been less specific than we might now expect. however, he often had access to charts and diagrams which others did not then have. the same goes for Dr Tuplin in terms of his interpretation of the data, but not necessarily on his diagrams. what this means is that all written history must be checked and confirmed in relation to more recently available data.

2/ ivatt tenders there are basically two types, horseshoe and self trimming, class A and B as explained in Grove and also RCTS. apart from the Baldwins, all were 6 wheelers. those without water scoops did not have tank vents, because they were not needed to relieve the pressure, those with did. most of those built with scoops from the beginning were self trimming type. thing to remember, when ivatt moved to gnr in 1895, they had no water troughs. stirling tenders were only fitted with them in retrospect.

3/ water scoop gear, same basic design for 6 and 8 wheelers which involved lever on front platform, some bell cranks, and a piston which moved the scoop. once retracted the scoop was kept up by a balance weight which was in restrained by small chains. as such no springs anywhere.

4/ ivatt atlantics, both 990 and 251 types were classed C1 by GNR but 251 was C1 in LNER, 990C2. whilst weight diagrams have some value, remember they were produced by hand and often re traced by hand, not copied as we do now, hence they may not be as accurate as you would hope. for those wanting to check the dimensions, i have to say that the Isinglass Drawings of the late John Edgson compare pretty well with the ex Doncaster drawings i have seen, don't forget John actually went and measured the things!!!!!!!!!!! a useful book that i have not seen mentioned elsewhere is Great Northern Atlantics by Nock. the diagrams alone are worth price.

that's enough for now, but hope it is of some help and interest

paul

[notascoobie]

Hi Paul,

I imagine you're involved with Malcolm on this project. Any idea how long before the book's published?

Regards,

Vernon

[john coffin]

hi vernon,
yes i am involved, the most recent problem frankly has been that we keep finding new information, and drawings thought previously lost
but we feel we are getting to the bottom of the barrel. so hopefully sooooooooooon

one thing people tend to ignore is that amount of information in the yeadon book series in relation to ex gnr locos on the lner, and their tenders.

the most fascinating thing about digging so deeply into this has been how often people have said "if only you had asked me"

lots of people have more information than they think, but do not feel confident in spreading it around, so it eventually gets lost or destroyed.
some data that you have may not, to you, directly relate to tenders, but gives us a lead in another direction, so ask the question or offer the data. too many people for many years kept the information under their beds, not in the public domain, i know that both malcolm and i are passionate about getting more data available.

paul

[notascoobie]

John,

Thanks for that. I've chatted a couple of times with Malcolm about the project and look forward to its completion.

Keep up the good work!

Regards,

Vernon

[Captain Cuttle]

john coffin Was the publication ever published?

[jwealleans]

I believe it is available through the Great Northern Society. That's where I got my copy from and I'm not a member.

[Pebbles]

Best bet is Terry Henderson; terryhenderson542@btinternet.com.

[john coffin]

Hi there, yes Malcolm's book was published by the GNR society in late October 2013, at our AGM, and the guys are right with this book in particular, the GNRS has decided it is so important that it is available to non members.

Terry Henderson has recently changed his email providor, and can be more easily contacted at telandlind@gmail.com.

it was like many of these things an epic undertaking, and yet we are still finding out more details about tenders nearly 150 years old. just goes to show, that we never know it all.

Paul