Picking up Water

[Locoman69]

[quote] Lovely, fascinating stuff to us ex-spotter types, Locoman. At the time you were up and down the line, I would have been in my usual position on the bridge at the north end of Langley troughs. Can you give us some blow-by-blow descriptions of the fireman's work in dropping the scoop, etc., and then lifting it up again against the force of water? We always got a thrill out of seeing the tank cap fly open with the resulting fountain. You blokes probably got a right rollicking for that, though, I suppose, if some folks got a bit damp in the first carriage with the windows open on a warm day.

Giner

Hi Giner
In answer to your query re picking up water. Yes I too was fascinated watching main line expresses picking up water, especially when the tank was full and it plummeted high up in the air and drenched the first two or three leading coaches. Many a time as a young man travelling to London on the Cleethorpes – Kings Cross express, the train would have to stop at Werrington Junction for access onto the main line where we would wait for both up and down ECML expresses, and watch absorbed as they picked up water on the Werrington troughs. However from a fireman’s point of view it was quite different.

Firstly, regular main line firemen would know the route on which they were running thoroughly, aware of every signal location, gradient and obviously the location of every water trough. They would plan their firing, filling the boiler with water, breaking coal lumps etc, aware of where the train actually was and prepared for the approach to the trough. The only warning sign was a large white board with
a /\/\/\/\ sign in black at the beginning of the trough. At night, remember, it was total darkness. Running at express speeds into a black void is quite something, even though you are running on a track.

I never have really known exactly what length the troughs actually were, but they were plenty long enough to pick up around two thousand gallons of water in a very short time. A trough around 600 yards long would take around 20seconds to cover at a speed around 70 mph. To give guidance as to how much water was in the tender, around 4000 gallons when full, most of the older engines had what we called a ‘walking stick gauge’ attached to the tender. This was a long upright thin pipe with small holes bored into it shaped like a walking stick. When turned to open, water would pour out of the appropriate hole identical to the height of the water in the tank. Unfortunately not all where well maintained, the holes being blocked with coal dust, so it was then pure guesswork. Other more modern locomotives had a proper calibrated gauge.

The procedure was the moment you hit the trough you wound down the scoop, checking the water gauge ready to remove the scoop when the tank was full. It was always essential that you picked up a near tank full so you left the scoop in the trough until it was full. Inevitably if you did overfill the tank it caused the gush of water out of the tank top lid if it was not secured. However another problem was that if you did fill the tank it was impossible to remove the scoop until you reached the end of the trough. The sheer speed of the train created such pressure when the water you were picking up had nowhere to go, so it was like hitting a brick wall. Another consequence was that the sudden rush of water erupting out of the tank lid also washed large quantities of coal onto the footplate. Another fine mess to clear up!!

Water troughs on the main lines were situated around every 35 to 40 miles apart, therefore on runs to and from Kings Cross to Peterborough, 76 miles, there was only one trough situated at Langley, near Stevenage. At New England we only worked expresses northward as far as York, 112 miles. Depending if you were starting from Peterborough with a full tank it wasn’t necessary to pick up at Werrington Junction, five mile north of Peterborough but you would at Muskham just north of Newark, Scrooby, south of Doncaster and also at, if I stand corrected, at Barlby just north of Selby on the old main line to York.

I hope this answers your query.

[giner]

Thank you, locoman. I had no idea of the water gauges involved or about the resultant gush of gunk into the cab from a spill, although commonsense should have told me otherwise. I also didn't know about having to leave the scoop down right until the end of the trough. I always thought there'd be enough leverage in the winding gear to pull the scoop up as soon as the tank was full. I do remember the black zigzag on the white board signage for the start of the trough.

For those too young to know the location of Langley troughs, the northern end of them was just about under the present road bridge (Six Hills Way) just south of the present Stevenage station. They ran from there to their southern end just before the curve towards the present Boadhall Way road bridge. There was a small three-arched bridge (Norton Green lane) just south of Six Hills Way where we'd delight in seeing a a four-foot solid fountain of water from the open tank lid of a down express loco smack against the arch and send water cascading fifty feet into the air, and soaking every giggling one of us! Happy days.

Very interesting stuff, locoman. Thanks again.

[CVR1865]

That is a very good story. What happened to the end of the trough if you left the scoop down did it smash it to bits? Was the scoop also damaged by this?
You really can't beat the recollections of those who were there.
Thanks
Simon

[Locoman69]

CVR 1865
When picking up water did you bend the scoop if you didn't pull it out when you reached the end of the trough?

Reply,
To be quite honest, even as an ex footplateman, this is a question that has always intrigued me and even I cannot really answer. I never knew of such a thing occurring and no driver ever warned me about such an incident and being careful. I too was always wary of picking up on Werrington troughs on the 'up' line, as the layout to the East Lincs main line junction was very close to the end of the troughs.

I can only assume that the trough was set much higher in the centre of the track than the actual running lines, but even that explanation raises problems.

I await any expert opinions to solve a problem I have never been able to answer for over 50 years.

Locoman 69

[Bryan]

The trough ends appear to be ramped to give a gradual run out.
This would give rise to a loud scraping noise if the scoop was left down.

See Fastline films Behind the scenes vol 4 for film of the renewal of Wiske Moor troughs near Northallerton.
It took a month long possession and used large excavators working in the middle 2 tracks with trains passing either side.

[52D]

You beat me to it ploughman, incidentally troughs survived into the diesel era for topping up steam heat boilers. I believe Lucker troughs were the last to be decommissioned on the ECML.

[60041]

What happened to the end of the trough if you left the scoop down did it smash it to bits? Was the scoop also damaged by this?

The troughs were placed on a level section of track with a slight rising gradient at each end, either natural or artificial, and therefore did not need ends. I can just remember the troughs at Lucker, between Chathill and Belford, and there was always a yard or two of dry trough at each end.

[52A]

The track through the troughs was slightly dished, as the train ran through it sank into the trough and rose at the other end. If you did not get the scoop out quick enough you risked severe damage to the scoop. There were experiments at Wiske with a Deltic to try and raise the speed limit for picking up water but the scoop was torn off at higher speeds than 70. The scoops on the diesels were of lighter consctruction than steam locos.

[giner]

From memory, admittedly not my best source, the troughs sort of chamfered off to an almost flat surface at the ends and, in conjunction with, as 60041 mentioned, the slight rise in gradient at either end I think it can be assumed that the scoop at its lowest point in the trough would still be several inches clear of the sleepers when the engine had cleared the troughs. I base that purely on never having seen any ripped and splintered sleepers at the trough ends.

Having had my spotting upbringing as a troughie(?), wouldn't it be grand to see a working trough on a model? Pure fantasy on my part of course, given the physical impossibilities of water and electricity in close proximity. Come on, one of you modellers, there's a challenge for you:D.

[Solario]

I know that the Great Eastern provided compressed air operated water scoops which seem a very sensible idea and presumably helped to prevent the problems that Locoman69 has mentioned. The air was supplied by the Westinghouse brake pump. Does anyone know if any of the other LNER companies provided such a facility?

Also, I have not heard of any troughs between Doncaster & York, is this just a lack of knowledge on my part? I always thought that it always seemed a bit strange for there to be 4 sets of troughs between Kings X & Doncaster, not much more that a third of the distance to Edinburgh and there to be only 2 sets north of Doncaster.

[rob237]

Also surprised to read of a set of troughs at Barlby...

Always thought that the 'batting order' was:
Langley, Werrington, Muskham, Scrooby, Danby Wiske and Lucker...

Can only recall one major incident involving troughs when, IIRC, a GWR Castle? was badly derailed - due to a defective scoop - at Creech St. Michael, near Taunton, during the war years.

Cheers
Robt P.

[CVR1865]

I think we have the question answered with the story about the castle. It would appear that the scoop is quite strong. Thanks for all the replies.

[Solario]

Coincidentally, I am in the midst of reading Peter Townend's excellent book "Top Shed".

He mentions incidents involving scoops, such as inexperienced enginemen winding the scoop handle instead of the tender brake and the damage caused both to the scoop & by the scoop if left down.

He also mentions lowering the scoop by half an inch on the A4s that worked the Elizabethan, to ensure a good pick up. This procedure was later applied to many other Top Shed locos.

[mr B]

The thing to remember is -lets say a crew on a stopping passenger or mixed frieght had the facilitys at both ends to replentish there water from a crane, and we had a lazey crew that decided to pick water from the trough's (loco permitting), this then would leave the trough's empty for the non stopper that was following a couple of blocks behind, and expecting to pick 2,000 gallons and on lowering the scoop could only manage a few hundred gallon, this incident would be reported by the loco crew of the express and and those involved could face the sack.

mr B .. More to come

[ROY@34F]

Well I never heard of that Mr.B. i.e. getting the sack for partly emptying the troughs.I,for one almost always topped up when going over troughs,if on an engine so fitted of course.It saved you clambering up the tender,and wielding a wet heavy leather bag about.Call it lazy if you like. I have read with interest Locoman's excellent posts in various topics on this forum.Thanks Locoman69.I remember sometimes "overdoing" it a bit with the scoop and flooding coal out onto the footplate,the water being forced up the two tank vents in the coal space,round the "U" bend downwards onto the coal.These vents were at the front end of the tender.I don't recall ever losing the tip of the scoop ,as Locoman says,but it was something to be aware of.I used to wind the scoop down 3 or 4 turns I think,watch if you're making a "splash",and if water is coming out stronger and out higher holes in the "stick";watch for the end of the troughs approaching,and put all you're strength into winding the scoop up.I allways thought the speed limit was 60 over troughs,but would stand corrected.I do feel the faster you were going,the more force generated on the scoop,making it harder to wind out.I have related before my first express trip while on loan to KX top shed.On 60131 with kx driver Harry Bartlett.I had done my home work,being young and keen of course,and knew pretty much where all the troughs were,and,as we were non stop to Doncaster,needed to pick up water;I did it ok. at all the troughs we passed ;a trip I wiil never foget, of course.