American steam power

[jrkepler]

Hello everybody, I'd like to introduce myself. I'm James, an American railfan.
I was curious about the nature of the various preserved railroads in the UK. I look at the state of steam power preservation in the USA and look at it in the UK and find myself in awe. I was wondering if it was possible for American steam locomotives to run on British rails. Even the precious few engines we have in a road worthy state are met by outright vicious refusals by railroads. Engines such as NKP 765 have faced terrible resistance trying to secure routs for the excursions. Once roadable locomotives have been parked, even gutted (NW1218). I was wondering if any sort of group had considered importing American road engines for use in UK preservation? The interest is so much stronger there, here we have locomotives looking for homes. I know that American railroads were built to a much heavier loading gauge, but still in these modern times is this still the case? I mean would it be possible to run a large American locomotive in the UK? Is there an interest there? I know that some heritage railways are able to run continental stock. Our own preservation movement is failing, the old machines are succumbing to their age faster than they can be repaired, if we won't save our own history, maybe somebody else will.

[Flamingo]

No chance I'm afraid. US steam locos are just too big - too high, too wide, too long, too heavy etc etc. They simply wouldn't fit under our bridges or tunnels.

[stembok]

Welcome James and it is good to have you posting on the site. As you will be aware the fact that almost all of the British main lines were built prior to 1900 meant that the British loading gauge is more restrictive than the rest of Europe and certainly much more so than that of North America. This has been an ongoing problem and gauge enhancement has been and is necessary in order to permit intermodal traffic with the rest of Europe and indeed for electrification projects. The old Great Central London Extension of 1899 was built to a more generous gauge, in the hope,not fulfilled, that one day trans- european traffic might use the route.
So, I think that any large American steam power would be extremely restricted as to where it could run, even if it was shipped over and I could not see Network Rail even entertaining the idea. In the early days of steam preservation I remember a French 231K compound Pacific being purchased and brought to Steamtown Carnforth. I believe it was steamed occasionally on a short demonstration line and various other continental locos, and American wartime S160 USTC locos have worked on preserved lines,but they of course were built to operate here. I understand that one of the problems in running main line steam in the USA are the huge indeminities needed in order to run steam power on the major railroads?
In Britain an LMS Duchess Pacific is, by our standards, regarded as a large engine. Visits to N.America and other parts of the world soon impressed upon me that size is indeed relative! I have a photograph of A4 60008 'Dwight D Eisenhower' dwarfed beside a UP 'Big Boy'.
Mind you, as far as British preservation goes, never say never is the safest stance to take, as witness some of the 'impossible' achievements so far, both in terms of lines and of locomotives and rolling stock.

[jrkepler]

I suppose this would be a good time to mention that Steamtown USA, our national railroad museum, is full of Canadian power. Anyway you're right the indemnities about running a steam excursion are massive and prohibitive in most cases. I look at the UK, and it seems like the preservation movement has so much force that you're actually rebuilding lost types. Here its almost certain that every steam locomotive you see is the last of its type. I'd also like to add that the Big Boy's position as the largest steam engine is still hotly debated. The real bad part is that the bulk of preservation was isolated to very atypical locomotives because they were the last to be displaced by the large standardized products from EMD, GE and Alco.

Still, do you think people in the UK are interested in American power? Other than size they're really quite ugly now. Big gnarled black things wrapped with pumps and piping. UK power is quite pretty, even freight locomotives have clean lines and colorful livery.

[stembok]

Speaking personally, I am interested in the steam locomotive in all of its forms. What is fascinating is the way in which various factors -geographical, availability of fuel, loading gauge, labour availability and costs etc - influenced the design of locomotives in different countries. Most American locomotives were built to do a no frills job first and foremost and their rugged looks and build with the exterior festooned with auxiliary equipment,pipework etc to some extent reflected this. In the UK there was, with a few exceptions, a strong aesthetic drive by designers to make locomotives look attractive and neat, even if at times accessability suffered and of course the loading gauge increasingly imposed constraints as locomotives became larger. Post 1945 in the UK things began to change in response to more difficult operating conditions, as seen in the LMS Ivatt 4MT locomotives and the BR Standard designs, their straightforward layout aimed at making servicing and maintenance easier and quicker, at a time when it was increasingly difficult to recruit labour. In other words events and economics made us begin to veer more towards American practice.
Paradoxically, around the same time there were attempts by American railroads in the 1930s and 40s to tidy up and beautify designs ,including the Norfolk and Western Js and those lovely Southern Pacific GS-4 'Daylights' -particular favourites of mine.

[Flamingo]

I would second Stembok's remarks about the SP Daylight 4-8-4s. Very good looking engines and nice livery too. I had a ride behind 4449 many years ago, LA to Portland.

The Norfolk & Western J's were good lookers too. What has happened to 611? Plinthed or stuffed somewhere I suppose.

[52D]

Thanks to the loyal posters on this forum who welcomed our trans atlantic friend. I hope he realises we are all enthusiasts and he should encourage other pan american enthusiasts to check us out I for one would love further feedback from across the water.

[jrkepler]

As I've said before I have a deep love for both American and UK steam power. There's just something so romantic about it all. Timeless machines of a bygone era. The age of the Hobo riding the high steel has long since passed into history but the lonesome man trying to ride out the worst of times on the train has become a part of the American fabric, as the living strings to that age break with every passing day I try to grab onto the timeless pages of history. To read about these desperate men and their efforts. This is but a page that the American Steam locomotive played in our nation. Our nation, as mighty as it is, was built upon railroads. These beauiful, tempermental machines made our world what it is today.

My love for the LNER is a guilty pleasure. Beautiful locomtives pulling beautiful trains themselves tripping on the edge of fantasy. Remember, Harry Potter rides the LNER.

[Malcolm]

No chance I'm afraid. US steam locos are just too big - too high, too wide, too long, too heavy etc etc. They simply wouldn't fit under our bridges or tunnels.

Especially my personal favourites the T1 "Duplex" locomotives. Fantastic monsters.

See: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E703c-OxADI

Malcolm

[stembok]

According to reports N & W 4-8-4 No 611 is now displayed at the Virginia Transportation Museum in Roanoke, VA, having made her final run on December 7th,1994.