WW2 LNER locomotive blackout fittings?

[wwrsimon]

Hello everyone

My first post, so be gentle...

I'm looking for any info/references for the blackout fittings on LNER tender locos during WW2.

From what I can gather, they had screens which were fixed to the inside of the cab roof which were unfurled and connected to the tender when needed. How were they attached to the tenders?

The only photo I can find of the screens is of GWR's 4096 Highclere Castle here:

https://www.steampicturelibrary.com/rai ... 29910.html

It appears to be attached to the tender with springs? Does anyone know if the LNER might have used a similar method?

There's a photo of J39 1485 in the Yeadon's Register J39 volume on page 90, taken on October 1939 which appears to have the front side cab windows plated over. Would that be right too?

Many thanks

Simon

[john coffin]

Whilst not specific data, it is worth realising that railwaymen had been adding "rain screens" or similar since very early on.
On many routes where there were not turntables at the end, for instance Stainforth on the NER, often the tender had an
old, scrapped tank loco's spectacle plate attached to the tender around the coal plate to reduce the wind blowing into
the cab when driving tender first. It also happened on the GER. Many of these locos seem to have had thick canvas
attached either to the underside of the roof, or to the edge and then fixed to the tender plate. Obviously they would
have had some movement allowable to ensure that the locos could go round tight curves on some branch lines.

It seems certain that the early covers would have been fitted at local sheds, and then maybe even removed before returning
to the works for overhauls. I doubt whether was the same system was used on all railways, it would depend on the CME and
previous practice. But it was not new in WW2, something similar had been used before, even on the East Coast lines in WW1,
and thus would have evolved over many years from the original bodge up to potentially a more sophisticated system in WW2.

It would have to have been easy for the engine men to attach and remove, but also designed to ensure that the fireman could
easily carry out his duties. Many of the early railmotors had used a similar system between the short loco roof, and the carriage
being pulled.

Might not be an answer that you need, but it is important to know it was not new for WW2. Certainly I have not read about it
in any books about the works etc, and considering how many locos would have needed conversion, it is likely to have been
really simple to close and open up. By then, there was a great deal of experience with folding rooves on horse drawn carriages
and also many cars, so there were likely to be many different answers.

Paul

[65447]

This is the preserved J15 at Sheringham, note the row of hooks fitted under the lip of the cab roof. Sister J15 65447 had a row of holes in the lip of the cab roof at similar spacing. Note the sheet support rail on the tender.

To respond to your second point, a number of classes had cab side windows 'blacked out' by one means or another.

[wwrsimon]

Many thanks indeed for the replies Paul and 65447.

That photo of the J15 is very helpful. There's a photo in 'By Rail to Victory' opposite page 5 which shows a crew fitting a screen, which seems to be fixed at the rear of the cab (I don't think it's a tender loco...?) and they're attaching it to the underside or rear of the cab roof.

There's a photo of J15 7833 in wartime 'NE' livery which looks to have the rear support rail too here:

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Cate ... ksbank.jpg

Regards

Simon

[wwrsimon]

I've just come across this photo of a J39 64853 at Hetton, taken in July 1949, which appears to have a tarpaulin rolled up under the rear of the cab roof:

https://www.thetransportlibrary.co.uk/m ... 53-at-hett

A left-over from the wartime blackout measures, perhaps?

Regards

Simon

[john coffin]

More likely still to do with running tender first on branch lines.

Paul

[jwealleans]

At least one D16 (can't recall which, but I have a picture of it somewhere) went for scrap in the 1950s still with the front cab window plated over, so some of the wartime changes were never reversed, either through oversight or because (as paul implies) crews found them useful.

[john coffin]

There is of course the other thing to remember which is money!!

Coming out of the war, the LNER in particular was skint and had trackwork and similar expenses to consider
before minor details like black out screen removal. Studying Yeadon shows how few locos were heavily serviced
rather than receiving just light repairs, before scrapping in the early 50's. Knocking off blackout screens was probably
low down the wish list for expense.

Paul

[wwrsimon]

More likely still to do with running tender first on branch lines.

Paul

At the risk of showing my ignorance, what would the tarpaulin be used for in connection with running tender first? Just as a sort of wind-break or rain shield?

Simon

[65447]

More likely still to do with running tender first on branch lines.

Paul

At the risk of showing my ignorance, what would the tarpaulin be used for in connection with running tender first? Just as a sort of wind-break or rain shield?

Simon

Yes. Different from blackout protection but related was the fitting of sections of redundant cab rear spectacle plates or similar weatherboards to the tenders of locomotives allocated to routes that involved substantial running in reverse.

[john coffin]

Simon,
if you don't ask the questions, you will live in ignorance!
It is again worth remembering that unless you are over 60, you have no practical knowledge or experience
of steam engines running in revenue service, so you rely on books, or people who have some memory to help
you learn.

Many branches along the coast lines around the country did not have turntables at the terminus, and thus
for part of the journey, the tender engine went tender first. Winds off the coast, and of course rain made
it quite uncomfortable running that way. Plus also the ash being blowing about. We tend to think that travelling
at 15-25 miles an hour is pretty slow, but as a fireman on a bumpy branch line it was pretty fast, so you need
the protection.

It is however also worth knowing that when early engines went from no spectacle plate, to a so called front weatherboard,
and on to a cab, the drivers often complained because they felt emasculated. Those who preferred cabs were thought of
as softies!!!!..
If you don't know ask it will not make you look stupid rather honest, and hopefully someone here has some of the knowledge
you want.

Paul

[65447]

Back to the topic of your OP, this extract from the Government-issued Air Raid Precautions 1940 might be both helpful and explanatory:

[Hatfield Shed]

...It is however also worth knowing that when early engines went from no spectacle plate, to a so called front weatherboard, and on to a cab, the drivers often complained because they felt emasculated. Those who preferred cabs were thought of as softies!...

Slight tangent from the OP's question, but from what is available as evidence of the early footplate crew's opinions, I would suggest it wasn't 'emasculation'. but concern for maintaining the best possible lookout, based on past experience.

Early locos with low steam pressure that operated at speeds that might quite regularly be much the same as that of the wind could be very problematic in this respect, with the exhaust not necessarily clearing well; I have seen this in the current operation of old replicas. Experienced crew opinions from those employed since the earliest days on the railways might well be in favour of 'nothing extra in the way'. We should never forget this was premium employment at the time, the men with these jobs would be very anxious to retain them, and employment protection there was none, other than your own unfailing performance.

[wwrsimon]

Hello again

With regards to the plated over cab side windows there's a photo of K3 1836 still with its wartime 'NE' on the tender, taken in May 1946 at Immingham in the Yeadon's Register Volume 8, page 45, with the following caption:

"It shows a wartime modifcation, in that the leading windows of the cab have been replaced by steel plate to reduce the risk to the crew should enemy aircraft attack using their machine guns, not unusual around the Humber estuary."

Regards

Simon

[wwrsimon]

Also, on page 31, there is a photo of K3 3816 fitted with a blackout screen with the following caption:

"Following the Munich political crisis at the end of September 1938, air raid precautions deemed it prudent to diminish glare when a firebox door had to be opened. Ex-works on 8th October 1938, No.3816 had been fitted with tarpaulin screen from rear edge of cab roof to front of tender, and that device was universal throughout the 1939-1945 war."

I hadn't expected them to be fitted so early.

Regards

Simon