Clans &Hymek's great expectations &longevity

[rockinjohn]

Hi all, often like the WR Hymeks, I wondered,whether too much was asked/expected of some loco classes , the Clans (12A)& Scottish Based class members expected to run& based there for this purpose,hauling the heavier Glasgow-Manchester/Liverpool trains only to find like the earlier Brits a shortfall in water capacity to carry out the task alloted,this having been found out on the Brits allocated for the long North Wales services to &from the Capital, bigger coal &water carrying tenders as fitted to as per the later Scottish based Brits also,ok for Manchester onwards to London for either the Euston or St Pancras Services,the Clans found with little to do &put basically on Blk5 duties& the LMR/Scottish Region had plenty of class 5's around, Meanwhile on the G.E. Mr Hardy claiming the Clan as tried (72009) not much better than a decent B1,( don't even think about the B17's/B12's by then), for the Clactons & had no intention of swapping his beloved Brits (30A)&(32A),soon to come off the Norwich Interval Services&Transfer to the Clactons), for these underpowered Interloppers,the Ten that were never built(we live in hope)for "Hengest" (they have built a Tornado),were destined for the S.R. intentionally or otherwise (who else wanted/needed them?),with the purpose of parting with possibly/hopefully a few MN or in the case of the BB's, instead of trundling around with two coaches in North Devon,personally I liked the look of the Clans especially that LMR style Chimney, & the general Brit look& pleased to see a Model released by Hornby?not that I could ever afford one.jj

[Hatfield Shed]

There's no evident reason why the Clan design fell short of expectation, and no real point in building one now to see if it can be 'made right'; or if indeed it was 'right', but was regularly loaded beyond its power rating and thus accrued a poor reputation. Dick Hardy for sure didn't want it for the GE job, he had a winner in the Britannia in place. Which leads to the thought that for the same money a Brit. can be procured, and that's a proven useful engine, 100% chance of a successful loco that will be very reliable when allowed out on the national network. (I am not a 'romantic'.)

As for the Hymek, regular problem with BR's hydraulics, transmission incapable of continuously handling full engine output. Derate the engine to circa 1200hp, problem solved, according to a late colleague who commenced his career in rail traction engineering.

[rockinjohn]

Hi, well I don't think the Clans fell short of anything,the build was never intended to match the performance of a Brit as the power Classification showed & possibly go where no Brit could venture( Note to Shedmasters, like the Hymek expected to match a King & driven on full power to match it & you could always purge a steam loco to get just that much more from it,so "their new lets try it"), that was the Operating Departments decision to allocate the locos to those erroneous duties,in fact I think I read somewhere many Moons ago that all Ten were designed with the West Highland Line( not having the romance of current times) in mind(think B1's&5MT's) where anything over a 6 coach load rare,& possibly a Prestige move on behalf of the BTC to share the Standards around the System,I dont think a "new" build Clan an intention to improve on anything, not as in the case of 71000 which never seemed to go past Crewe Northwards, when not in works or some other regions works for rectification, being no joy for Crews when built &operated in BR times,I think just like a set of any group of Collectable Objects,I know its Big Boys playing "Big Trains" instead of "LittleTrains"(Narrow Gauge or Model) but then it would just be nice to complete the Preservation jigsaw of the Standard Classes( 2MT tank nearly here) with a Clan Example.jj

[thesignalman]

Hi, well I don't think the Clans fell short of anything,the build was never intended to match the performance of a Brit as the power Classification showed & possibly go where no Brit could venture

I think the Clans were designed and created in order that BR could offer engines of all power types to any region that might need them. Unfortunately, nobody did need them as those that used engines of that power/size had a good stock of what they needed and they were of recent-enough build to not need replacement.

The small batch that were built found themselves, as I'm sure everybody knows, allocated to Carlisle Kingmoor and Glasgow Polmadie. I can't speak for the Polmadie ones but my observations were that the Carlisle ones were frequently found on what would generally be Jubilee-worked diagrams. Certainly that area was well-equipped with Jubilees, Patriots and the like, as was most of the LM. Jubilees, Patriots and Clans could be found working south from Carlisle on anything between seasonal expresses to places like Manchester and express freight on the Settle & Carlisle. I have little experience of what went on north of Carlisle but expresses between places like Liverpool or Manchester and Glasgow seemed to be Jubilee workings so I expect that is where they found their feet.

John

[strang steel]

According to Wikipedia, a class 5 pacific was also planned originally, but that idea was abandoned in favour of a 4-6-0 wheel arrangement in the form of the 73xxx class.

The pacific idea was originally put forward in order to allow a wide firebox and therefore the ability to cope with lesser quality coal.

Some of the standard classes may have seemed a good idea in 1950, but by the time they appeared from works the rapid acceleration of modernisation had made them somewhat redundant.

[rockinjohn]

Hi Strang & didnt the Standard Class 5 do well,the Southern Engineman loved them & quite the equal of WC/BB &Arthurs,crews struggled with the Caprotti version but not @ St Rollox on the interval services to Dundee&Perth nor the fast fitted freights worked by Patricroft and Rowsley Men, slow starters but once on a roll much preferred to the normal class members,all in all a success story all round apart from a dirty windy footplate for the crew.

[Mickey]

When it comes to the B.R. standard classes along with the 9Fs 2-10-0 which were great locos that should have and could have worked on into the 1980s especially in the midlands and the north before all the coal mines and steel plants started to close down from the late 1980s onwards. Also I always liked the standard 4 2-6-0 & 4-6-0 designs over the standard 5 4-6-0 design purely on looks and being a bit smaller than the class 5s although for performance value I have read in the past that the class 4s weren't that good overall but then I also read that they were ok and that loco crews liked them?. Also I like the standard 4MT 2-6-4 tanks as well and were nice looking tanks and lastly the Britannia's it's a pity a handful more of them weren't saved along with 70000 & 70013.

The standard 5 4-6-0 to me will forever be associated with the southern region especially the south western division and finally also for the 'handful' of class 3 2-6-0s purely for rarity value.

[rockinjohn]

Hi Mickey, yes a valid comment on the Standard passenger 4's(750xxx) once transformed with a Dbl chimney & bigger tender become almost quite their the 5's equivalent within the S.E.Section of the Southern using them turnabout with the 5's(730/1xxx) the Standard 4's 2-6-0 a very handy addition to the Standard Classes being a true mixed traffic loco & all kinds of traffic found for them on the regions that had allocations, (30A) had a few (5) allotted for Cross-London freights & quite often turned up on the Hertfords out of the Street & on loan to Neasden(GC)also.jj

[Mickey]

Hi Mickey, yes a valid comment on the Standard passenger 4's(750xxx) once transformed with a Dbl chimney & bigger tender become almost quite their the 5's equivalent within the S.E.Section of the Southern...

Thanks jj you should have been a locoman on B.R. during the 'golden era' of the 1950s & 1960s.

And as for the W.R. Hymeks by the time that I went 'spotting' at Paddington in the summer of 1970 I think they had all gone although there was still plenty of Westerns and Warships to be seen along with the Western region allocated Brush type 4s (class 47s) the 1600 series in and around the terminus at that time. I think some of 'our' blue livered Brush type 2s (class 31s) off the Eastern region (possibly from Stratford?) had been allocated to Old Oak common by then having taken over from the Hymeks on ECS workings into and out of Paddington.

[rockinjohn]

Yes the (blue)31's I saw were ex (30A) & Ripple Lane(TMD),based @(OOC),they found work as you say on ECS & Parcel trains sometimes with only a single GUV. shades of the Dbl ended single Parcel Cars,I only saw/remember the Hymeks on Express workings ex. Paddington to Bristol /Worcester&South Wales etc the latter with maybe 10+carriages, but the HST trams swept away all before them,Now you & others remember crewing the Sulzer4's on the GN section & on their initial introduction(00-19) based @ Clarence Yard with some outstationed @(35A)New England that proved ultra unreliable, was the rostering so intense for them? apart from Express Duties in the rosters it included 70+freights New England to Ferme Park & I would think High Dyke mineral workings thrown in for good measure,other regions WR/GE &Midland examples proving quite reliable,was it that the first Twenty(20)were so different to the rest to affect their reliability to such a degree, views welcomed.jj

[Mickey]

On one of my Western region dvds it features a 'Clan' although I can't remember which one(?) on a rail tour on either a Ian Allan or LCGB tour after arriving at Swindon with its train of maroon B.R.Mk1 coaches around 1963-1964 I believe without watching it again.

[rockinjohn]

When the "Celebrity"Clan came down to the smoke '58? via the "Thames-Clyde" or a Bradford Express, I know it went home on a Bradford,my next door Neighbour a Kentish Town (14B)fireman the same one along with a kindly driver who unofficially gave me a footplate ride ex. St Pancras to Upper Holloway Station on a Barking local(duck down behind the side plates)when we pass Engine Shed Junc.on a "Breadvan"400xx class,told me to hotfoot to (14B) as a Clan had arrived unbeknown to us @ that time on its way to Stratford(30A) for its Seaside Holiday to Clacton,amazing thing is I have never seen footage or/reports/timekeeping of this occurrence or photos on Shed or Working on G.E.metals after all these years, anybody seen otherwise?.jj

[burnie]

I remember Hymeks working trains up the Great Central to Leicester on a regular basis in the early 1960's on a Swindon to Sheffield Express,, it arrived in Leicester at around 10.20 pm, so it was never photographed as far as I'm aware. I was told the engine changed at Leicester, so I don't think Hymeks ever got further north than Leicester/

[rockinjohn]

Hi Burnie, intresting never saw that reported,but I know the fans enjoyed the visits from Hall's&Counties to Leicester(GC)wasnt their a Swindon bound fish train(loaded) usually hauled by a B1 that ended up with a Hall up front sometimesjj

[burnie]

Hi Burnie, intresting never saw that reported,but I know the fans enjoyed the visits from Hall's&Counties to Leicester(GC)wasnt their a Swindon bound fish train(loaded) usually hauled by a B1 that ended up with a Hall up front sometimesjj

After "Midlandisation" all manner of stock appeared south of Leicester, summer cross country trains from the West usually were Hall hauled and loco and or crews changed at Leicester, these locos usually took something back to Swindon later the same day. A few old Eastern region locos survived, but after the withdrawl of the named passenger trains in 1957, B1's and V2's were the most often seen, also the "Standard" classes took up a lot of the slack.