Gresley Spencer - Moulton bogie

[melton]

Here's a link to Alexander Spencer's (US) patent for the compound bolster part of the above bogie. Trust HNG to make use of a good thing when he saw it. Thats why Gresley was a giant of steam and people like F Webb weren't.

http://www.google.co.uk/patents/US914889

[Bill Bedford]

Webb taught Gresley, all he knew.

[65447]

Only the designs and very poor reproduction at that. As Bill quite rightly points out:

Geoff Hughes writes in his biography of HNG '...Crewe, under the autocratic Webb, and with Henry Earl as Works Manager, had the highest reputation among the engineers of the day...'. That was in 1893. However as time passed and Webb aged, HNG decided that he had learnt all that he could and in 1898 obtained a pupillage under Aspinall at Horwich in the drawing office, then materials laboratory and finally from 1900 achieving rapid promotion through the C&W Department. Hughes also records that during this time HNG challenged the views of his superior concerning the unsuitability of US bogie design when used with British side buffers (the US used the central coupler) so clearly HNG had made a reasonable study of the subject. Another engineering innovation that Aspinall had seen used in Ireland (Inchicore) was the swing link design of locomotive bogie which he brought back and applied on the L&YR, whilst HA Ivatt who succeeded Aspinall in Ireland also brought that arrangement of suspension with him when he subsequently moved to the GNR. There are similarities between the swing-links used in locomotive bogies and the double bolsters used in the Gresley Moulton Spencer bogies.

Having attained the post of C&W Superintendent to the GNR HNG came across the first Spencer patent for this type of bogie and working with Spencer & Moulton - a working relationship that lasted for many years - developed his own first version of what is now known as the 'Gresley' bogie.

All of the relevant patents are available on the worldwide espacenet databases, this is the GB search page: http://worldwide.espacenet.com/?locale=en_EP For the GB version of Spencer's patent search for GB190726060A.

Spencer or Moulton & Spencer were granted several relevant patents for bogie design whilst HNG was also granted additional patents in connection with various supplementary devices used in articulation, as well as his own patent for a swing link pony truck/bogie for locomotives.

I have not found a joint patent however.

[john coffin]

Spencer Moulton had a longstanding relationship with the GNR stretching back to the first carriage building at Doncaster. There products were specified for instance as interleaves between the body and the underframes to reduce shocks at a time when leaf springs were pretty badly made and not particularly well riding. They also created various products for buffing and pull gear usage.

Two of Gresley's major "patents" were actually modifications of those produced by other. ie Holcroft with the 2:1 conjugated gear, and Spencer Moulton and the Bogie. It was at that time much easier to get a patent with only minor modifications between an original and the later one. Of course part of that was to do with the number of patent offices open, and the timetable for checking information between the different offices.

What is fascinating however is that Gresley did not find a possible modification to the rear axle part of the Pacifics and still called it the Cortazzi,
or indeed the Bissell truck too . After many years of searching, I have still not found a patent in the name of the Cortazzi that Brown and others mention with regard to the Gresley Pacifics, interesting. The only patent I have found relates to the guide gear for an overhead railway, rather like that at Wuppertal in Germany.

Finally I am not sure that Aspinall took the full idea of the swing link bogie to the L&Y whilst certainly Ivatt did take it to the GNR. It is possible that it was devised by Alexander McDonnell , who later moved to the NER. He was producing 4-4-0's very early for the irish railways, certainly a long time before either the L&Y and the GNR had 4-4-0's.

Paul

[drmditch]

F.A.S Brown, in his biography of Gresley, also reports that the Swing Link bogie was taken to Inchicore by McDonnell. Presumably therefore there is a direct 'link' between this interesting but not totally effective engineer (at least in terms of engineering management) and the subsequent bogie design of both the NER and the GNR,

It was interesting last year to study the swing-link bogie constructed for the new build 0-4-4 Class O/G5 in Shildon. I haven't studied the design, but is there a direct relationship between the NER bogies produced under the Worsdells and the contemporary designs produced by Ivatt and his illustrious successor at Doncaster?

[65447]

What is fascinating however is that Gresley did not find a possible modification to the rear axle part of the Pacifics and still called it the Cortazzi, or indeed the Bissell truck too . After many years of searching, I have still not found a patent in the name of the Cortazzi that Brown and others mention with regard to the Gresley Pacifics, interesting. The only patent I have found relates to the guide gear for an overhead railway, rather like that at Wuppertal in Germany.

You wouldn't as it's spelt Cartazzi... but a guy at Gloucester RC&W obtained a patent for a modification based on the Cartazzi box in the late 1960s.

Finally I am not sure that Aspinall took the full idea of the swing link bogie to the L&Y whilst certainly Ivatt did take it to the GNR. It is possible that it was devised by Alexander McDonnell , who later moved to the NER. He was producing 4-4-0's very early for the irish railways, certainly a long time before either the L&Y and the GNR had 4-4-0's.

F.A.S Brown, in his biography of Gresley, also reports that the Swing Link bogie was taken to Inchicore by McDonnell. Presumably therefore there is a direct 'link' between this interesting but not totally effective engineer (at least in terms of engineering management) and the subsequent bogie design of both the NER and the GNR,

It was interesting last year to study the swing-link bogie constructed for the new build 0-4-4 Class O/G5 in Shildon. I haven't studied the design, but is there a direct relationship between the NER bogies produced under the Worsdells and the contemporary designs produced by Ivatt and his illustrious successor at Doncaster?

I didn't discuss the full provenance since the OP's subject only concerned Gresley and Spencer and Moulton and the carriage bogie design. The reference was relevant in that the swing link design was in use on the L&YR whilst HNG was a pupil there. McDonnell was indeed mentioned as the engineer who introduced them to Inchicore - a curious choice of words since it is ambiguous as to whether he invented them or adopted a design from elsewhere. Nevertheless John Coffin misconstrues Aspinall's role since he clearly did learn about the swing-link design at Inchicore and subsequently it was employed by the L&YR.

Locomotive engineers are often viewed by outsiders as being in competition with each other but this was generally the opposite of the facts. Most if not all belonged to one or more of the Institutions of Locomotive Engineers, Civil Engineers, and Mechanical Engineers and knowledge was shared by the delivery of Papers and ensuing discussions at regular meetings. The Association of Railway Locomotive Engineers was founded with the specific intent of collaboration and presenting a unified voice to the outside world when necessary; HNG was very keen on this last organisation which engaged in the development of common specifications or standards for a number of components and even to the extent of standardised designs for locomotives (eat that Thompson!).

[john coffin]

Since I am not an L&Y follower, I bow to those who have more knowledge on that railway, and since I cannot presently find my copy of the Aspinall biography, cannot check either.

Interesting that such an out of the way railway as that at Inchicore should have had such a long term impact on British Railways. 4-4-0's and bogies, very interesting especially at a time when steel was not so well evolved.

As for Cartazzi, there are at least two spellings in various books, including Vol 2 of the Green Un's with both a first A or O.
The engineer we all think died in about 1856 in India, and so one wonders why his patent if indeed it was his, was still in force in 1921/2 when
HNG started to think about using it on the Pacifics.

Paul

[silverfox]

It is nice to see Gresley bogies still in use under one ( perhaps more?) of the VSOE Pullmans