Gresley Dia 186 Coach Seating

[isleofthanet]

Hi,

I remember reading somewhere that the bucket seating was replaced post war, was this on all the coaches or did some retain their original ones till withdrawal?

Regards

Alan

[65447]

You are correct in that replacement by standard seating was started shortly after the end of WW2 but it is not possible to state explicitly which carriages received replacements at what date. However, as the Dia. 186 carriages lasted into the 1960s - the first being condemned in 1961 but a good number lasting until 1965 - it is extremely probable that all were converted since over that length of time seat refurbishment would be required as a matter of course.

[isleofthanet]

Ok, what sort of seating would have replaced them and what colour would they be?

Regards

Alan

[65447]

Standard seating and whichever moquette or other material was in use at the time of refurbishment, 3rd/2nd class usually being a reddish colour.

If you are asking this sort of question then you are not doing any real research of your own - there are numerous sources of carriage/coach interiors photographs including on the preservation websites and the usual places like flickr.

[isleofthanet]

I disagree entirely, I always do my own research as far as i can, what a strange reply!

[jwealleans]

You'll already have found these pictures, then?

[65447]

Or this Dia. 186, converted back from a Control Vehicle https://www.flickr.com/photos/69459652@N08/10138489254/

[Trestrol]

Or this Dia. 186, converted back from a Control Vehicle https://www.flickr.com/photos/69459652@N08/10138489254/

Thing is i think they are MK1 seats, Similar but not quite right. The moquette is not right either. if you find a picture of the bucket seats in 56856 the moquette was the same on the high back chairs fitted latter at least initially. Also the LNER reused the spring frames in the bucket seat cushions when they put normal seats in them. LNERCA found these when they did the Gresley BTO 43567, there is a picture as it appeared in the newsletter but is not on there website.

[isleofthanet]

You'll already have found these pictures, then?

Yes I have as apart from trying to find out whether all Dia 186 TO coaches had their bucket seats replaced and what with I am also looking to find what the colours were of the whole of the interior in the early sixties.
The Full Brake no.70759 is of interest to me as I am an active volunteer on the SDR and it was at Buckfastleigh for many years as a storage vehicle.

[jwealleans]

There are a number of active LNERCA restorers on the forum, I'm surprised none of them have picked this thread up as yet.

[Wavey]

It is doubtful whether bucket seats lasted into BR days on Dia 186 (or Dia 216) open thirds. They were replaced with LNER high backed seats. The LNERCA were sent a photo taken inside a Dia 186 in the 1960's which was published on the back of the last newsletter and I can't locate it at the moment. The walls above waist line and ceilings were painted cream and below the waist dark brown.
Whether the rexine wall coverings were removed at the same time the seats were changed I don't know. There was a serious fire in 1948? that prompted removal of rexine as it was a contributory factor to the spread of the fire.

[sawdust]

Yes all the bucket seats were replaced I believe. The new ones I made the frames for in 56856 use rubberised horse hair for the backs, originally I belive they used bags stuffed with horse hair, which slumped to the bottom of the backs over time, making them become uncomfortable.

Also we know the last batch of TTOs built in 1939 had the high back seats from new (the 1938 ones had a revised bucket seat design as used in 56856. LNER and Met Cam drawings confirm two designs).

We know bucket seats were still in place in the early 40s from photos of evacuated children and perhaps more importantly the Ampleforth fire.

The devastating fire could have resulted in replacing the seats but that doesn't explain the change in design in 1939 to use high backed seats.

Does anyone have documentary evidence of when the seats were replaced? Circumstantial evidence seems to suggest this programme at least began during the war.

For those who don't know the bucket seat frames are mounted on two cast aluminium pedestals. It is my theory that the design change in 1939 was due to aluminium not being available in the run up to war and that the bucket seats were replaced during wartime in order to recover the metal from the seats.

Although I have seen photos of seats covered in other moquette, bucket seats would normally be covered with the brown and orange design used by LNERCA (pattern no. on Met Cam drawing). This moquette was also still on some of the seats in 43567 and on the NRM TTO seats now at EARM. The rest of the high backed seats in 43567 and those from 23956 used an early BR dark red design.

The original colour scheme used in the interiors is as per 56856, 23956 and 43567. The interior finishes are unusually specified on the Met Cam GA drawing and backed up by material fragments recovered from all three vehicles (photos to be linked to when I have time, as I have a date with a pointy coach today).

Sawdust.

[isleofthanet]

It is doubtful whether bucket seats lasted into BR days on Dia 186 (or Dia 216) open thirds. They were replaced with LNER high backed seats. The LNERCA were sent a photo taken inside a Dia 186 in the 1960's which was published on the back of the last newsletter and I can't locate it at the moment. The walls above waist line and ceilings were painted cream and below the waist dark brown.
Whether the rexine wall coverings were removed at the same time the seats were changed I don't know. There was a serious fire in 1948? that prompted removal of rexine as it was a contributory factor to the spread of the fire.

Thanks for your information, very interesting.
So is the seating currently in both 52255 and 43600 the type that you mention as high backed?

[Wavey]

I believe that the seats in the SVR Open Thirds are modified BR Mark1 ones to assimilate the LNER high backed seats.
The NRM TTO 23956 which is on loan to the LNERCA/NYMR has original LNER high backed

seats in it which were re-upholstered.

[65447]

I believe that the seats in the SVR Open Thirds are modified BR Mark1 ones to assimilate the LNER high backed seats.

They are - it clearly states so in the descriptive text on the relevant LNERSVR webpage (as provided earlier by Jonathan W).