LMS Fowler 3F (Jinty)

[Graeme Leary]

Not likely I know but did any of the LMS Fowler Class 3F (Jinty's) ever run on the LNER network (ie not BR) and if so, in what livery and numbers?
Many thanks.
Graeme Leary
New Zealand

[1H was 2E]

Quote from LMS Locomotive Profiles no 14 - the Standard class 3 freight tanks;
"In April 1927 the Locomotive & Electrical Committee indicated that some of the 1927 programme (of Jinties) were obtained specifically to replace old North London section passenger tanks at Devons Road. Their duties included working trains out of Broad Street and through the Northern Heights to Edgware, Alexander Palace, Potter's Bar, Hatfield and High Barnet".
The same book gives the 1927 Devons Rd allocation as - 7140-6, 16430-40/64-7/76/7/81/2, 16561-81/4/94-9, 16644-9.
The locos used on these services had brackets front and rear to carry destination boards, carriage warming (although of course Jinties used as ecs pilots would also have this) and, most likely, screw reverse (although all, apart from the SDJR ones, were built with lever reverse). I'm not sure whether the whole Devons Road allocation were fitted up for passenger work in this way, as there was probably quite a bit of freight work to be covered as well.
Don't know when they stopped being used, but interestingly the Jinties later converted for VCR push pull (mainly Swansea area) were ones from the Devons Road allocation, suggesting that they were regarded as passenger engines.
PS they were NEVER red!

[manna]

G'Day Gents

Not 100% sure, but I think Jinty's worked through to Gordon Hill as well.

Also, the Broad St workings stopped at the outbreak of WW2, those workings were taken over by the LNER, and later BR (E)

manna

[Graeme Leary]

Many thanks for input. Do the references to Devons Road, Gordon Hill and Broad Street indicate LNER - out here in the colonies not au fait with these, I presume, shed names?
The detail for Devons Road (in particular) suggests to me that if I renumbered my model Jinty (the reason for this question in the first case) somewhere in the sequence 7140-6 would be acceptable (as I assume the 5 digit numbers are all BR), paint it Black and letter the boiler (cab??) LNER all would be well - or would other letters have been used in the 1923-47 era?
Point certainly taken about NEVER red!
Graeme Leary

[Bryan]

I realise that the dates on this site only run from 1948 and creation of BR.
However it does indicate a number of locations where 3f's were allocated in the fringe areas around the LNER.
So it would be perfectly feasible for a cross border incursion to take place.

http://www.brdatabase.info/locoqry.php? ... page=alloc

[2512silverfox]

Graeme

If you use a Jinty, the database will help you to find one appropriate to your area, but note that in your period, 1936 ish, the loco would have been plain black with LMS on the tanks in yellow and number on the bunker with another number on a plate on the smokebox front.

Even if the loco was working off the parent system, overhauls etc and livery would be standard for the 'big four' in question.

Nick

[Graeme Leary]

Many thanks for the replies manna and 2512silverfox. I have to say the info on the database makes really fascinating reading with all the detail (and I hope there may be the same for A1/3s and A4s; my main area of interest).
Scrolling through the details for the sheds that I definitely know as being in Yorkshire eg Hull Dairycotes; York North; Wakefeld; Skipton (even though probably part of LMS) it seems to be that allowing for the 'cross border incursion', 3F numbers 7508 or 7510 allocated to Sowerby Bridge (very nice little town) could well meet my criteria in the pre Nationalisation time frame - both 6/12/47 so they just make it. Is this a fair assumption and, in the deep dark recesses, would a photograph of either of these locos be available anywhere on line?
Graeme Leary

[Hatfield Shed]

Though some distance from your planned Yorkshire location, the particular fame of the Jinty with respect to the A4. As already mentioned the North London Railway suburban services out of Broad Street which worked onto the East Coast main line were by the 1930s hauled by the Jinties. By the mid 1930s with the introduction of the A4 on the Silver Jubilee, it fell out that a Jinty had to run very crisply to clear the road just ahead of the down Jubilee.

The contrast between the little tank thrashed along on a suburban set, and the easy grace of the 'silver bullet', was something much appreciated by those who would wait on the platform to see the Concorde of its day race past.

[StevieG]

Graeme, In case you haven't already received the answer to your earlier query, Devons Road was a principal Shed of the North London Railway/Line (LMSR-owned in the period about which you're asking) in the Bow area of East London, on their Poplar line.
Broad Street was the NLR/NLL's (also then LMSR) 9-platform terminus in the City of London, immediately adjacent to the west side of the Great Eastern Railway/LNER's Liverpool Street station.
All the other places-mentioned were destinations on the ex-Great Northern Railway's (King's Cross area) LNER suburban network (Edgware, Alexandra Palace, High Barnet, Potters Bar, Hatfield, Gordon Hill).

[kudu]

Many thanks for input. Do the references to Devons Road, Gordon Hill and Broad Street indicate LNER - out here in the colonies not au fait with these, I presume, shed names?
The detail for Devons Road (in particular) suggests to me that if I renumbered my model Jinty (the reason for this question in the first case) somewhere in the sequence 7140-6 would be acceptable (as I assume the 5 digit numbers are all BR) ... Graeme Leary

Broad Street was the North London Railway's City terminus. Devons Road was the railway's only shed of any size, as already explained by Stevie G. To reiterate, Gordon Hill and the other places mentioned were terminating points of services from Broad Street on GNR metals, later taken over by LNER locos based at King's Cross, mostly N2s. The location of Devons Road close to the docks area indicates that Devons Road was principally a freight shed, especially after the NLR services to Richmond and Watford Junction were electrified and freight and shunting were the Jinties' principal role at Devons Road. All the numbers listed by 1H are LMS, not BR, numbers. But you should note, Graeme, that the entire class was renumbered in 1934 to the series 7260-7681, becoming 47260-47681 under BR (with 5 gaps). None of 1H's numbers are therefore valid for your chosen period.

It is of interest to note that Devons Road had by far the largest allocation of Jinties (count the number in 1H's 1927 list) until they were displaced by various Type 1 diesels (which were less powerful than the steam locos they replaced) in the late 1950s. It has the distinction of being the first BR shed to become 100% diesel, in late 1958, being selected because its operation was self-contained (no locos from other sheds being scheduled to be serviced there). Herein lies a paradox since the line its engines worked was one of the most cosmopolitan in the country, with assorted Southern and LNER as well as LMS types from various London depots. The explanation is that the workings were mostly relatively short and so the locos only needed water and perhaps turning at the various destinations before returning home with another freight.

I'm sure this is more than you need to know for your model, Graeme, but I hope you and others find it interesting.

Kudu

[Graeme Leary]

Thanks to kudu, StevieG and Hatfield Shed. Very enlightening and of general interest anyway and certainly helped (along with the other earlier replies) with my planned renumbering of my solitary 3F.
Graeme

[StevieG]

Thanks to kudu, StevieG and Hatfield Shed. Very enlightening and of general interest anyway and certainly helped (along with the other earlier replies) with my planned renumbering of my solitary 3F.
Graeme

Incidentally Graeme, just in case it should become relevant to you, the Alexandra Palace mentioned was the small terminus, at the actual palace, of the branch line (closed 1954) from the 'Northern Heights' lines' station of Highgate, and not the current Alexandra Palace station on the current UK national network's East Coast Main Line, which is the replacement name given in the 1980s to the long-standing GNR / LNER / British Rail station of Wood Green.

[manna]

G'Day Gents

The Alexandra Palace station of today, will always be Wood Green to me, Ally Pally was at the top of the hill, not at the bottom.

manna

[Pyewipe Junction]

I wonder whether any Jinities were stationed at York LMS shed during LNER days.

There were certainly a few at York in the early 60s.

[D2100]

It is of interest to note that Devons Road had by far the largest allocation of Jinties (count the number in 1H's 1927 list) until they were displaced by various Type 1 diesels (which were less powerful than the steam locos they replaced) in the late 1950s.

I'm interested in the rationale that states that a Type 1 diesel of 800 - 1000hp is less powerful than a class 3 steam loco. Not being entirely au fait with steam power calculations, would you care to expand on that?