Identified GN location

[JASd17]

The view of the Atlantics on the Up train at Hawkshead is a late afternoon shot.


John

[Mickey]

The view of the Atlantics on the Up train at Hawkshead is a late afternoon shot.

Ok I'll get it right in a minute John so the doubled-headed 10:19am worked down to Hitchin first before returning later back up to Kings Cross in the afternoon as shown in the photograph. I read it originally as you saying it first worked up road into Kings Cross and instead of running the Atlantic back to Hitchin light engine they stuck it on the front of the 10:19 am on the return working back to Hitchin. lol ha ha ha...

[JASd17]

Hi Mickey,

I think I have inadvertently been misleading.

I think the 10.19am Down was double headed to avoid one of the engines being a light engine movement north, a 6-carriage train did not need 2 locos. I believe it was an unbalanced working, therefore the 2 locos were not coupled together all day.

Having said that, I will try and work out which train the 2 Atlantics are hauling into King's Cross. Being an Ordinary Passenger train, it will be a regular service.

I hope this clears the fog a little bit.

John

[kimballthurlow]

Hi,
This photograph (being a real beauty) has had me so intrigued, I continued with some research.
The below image contains the c.1910 Ordnance Survey six inch to the mile map, geo-referenced to the same location on a current satellite image.
This local area to the north east of Potters Bar was known as Little Heath.

The cross on the satellite image is where I believe the photographer stood.
At the same point on the map, you will notice the SPs which means signal posts. These show well on the photo.

Hawkshead circa 1910

A larger version of the map also shows what were then two substantial buildings, and it is either of these that show in the background. One is Darkes Lodge, and the other is Osborne Lodge. I am unable at this point to get any other information on either of these buildings, but both were 0.8 of a mile (c. 1400 yards) from the photographer.
I believe what is now Lochinvar House school was Osborne Lodge.
Note that the map shows 4 tracks, a double in the middle with singles either side, just as in the photo.

Six Inch to the Mile - just north of Potters Bar.

I am aware that these images may breach some sort of government copyright, so I appeal to the image police that these are reproduced here simply to further railway related research, from which neither I nor any other observers receive any income (as far as I know).

Kimball

[Mickey]

Interesting kimball, it looks like the small 'Dell Wood' at bottom middle has been completely obliterated since 1910 although there are still some trees shown around that area, pity the 'powers that be' didn't name either Cranbourne road or Summit road as Dell Road?. Also note the 'Duty Stone' is shown as well I believe the person who owned the land around that area of Hawkshead was paid a financial toll for every coal or goods wagon that passed the Duty Stone?.

[kimballthurlow]

Thanks Mickey.

On a side issue, loco #1402 (the subject of this topic) was renumbered sometime after the grouping.
Would anyone know what number it carried in LNER days?

regards
Kimball

[2512silverfox]

4402!

[kimballthurlow]

Thankyou Silver Fox.
So +3000, but not in every case I suspect.

Kimball

[Mickey]

Ivatt Atlantic LNER no.4402

I am not sure if I have read a technical piece of writing on the rebuilding of a LB&SC Marsh Atlantic correctly but there is some mention of the boiler from no.4402 being retained after the loco it's self was withdrawn in 1945 with the boiler being overhauled at Doncaster and then being sold to a out side industry but years later found and was still in very good condition anyway am I correct in assuming (I maybe incorrectly assuming?) that this Ivatt Atlantic boiler is now being used for the rebuilding of a Marsh Atlantic?.

So does that mean the Ivatt large boiler Atlantic that is shown approaching Hawkshead in the original photograph circa 1911 is still around today??.

[Eightpot]

Afraid not, Mickey. According to Yeadon's Register of LNER Locomotives Volume 13, 4402 had no less than eleven boilers fitted from the time it was built in June 1905 until withdrawn in August 1947. Its last boiler was a new one, number 9356, fitted in May 1943, and if as reported as sold outside the LNER to John Sadd & Sons Ltd, at Maldon, Essex may possibly be the one to go on 32424 Beachy Head, the boiler number of which is unknown.

Taking things a little further, after a gap from about 1938 I have found that at least nine new circa 1943 built boilers for C1 Atlantics were built, that on 4402 was fitted on 22/5/43 and the loco withdrawn on 5/8/47. A better bet for an outside purchaser would have been boiler 9459 as fitted to 4444 on 21/10/44 only for the loco to be withdrawn less than a year later on 2/10/45!

[Mickey]

Afraid not, Mickey. According to Yeadon's Register of LNER Locomotives Volume 13, 4402 had no less than eleven boilers fitted from the time it was built in June 1905 until withdrawn in August 1947. Its last boiler was a new one, number 9356, fitted in May 1943, and if as reported as sold outside the LNER to John Sadd & Sons Ltd, at Maldon, Essex may possibly be the one to go on 32424 Beachy Head, the boiler number of which is unknown.

Sorry to deviate off the main topic thread and thanks for the info on the boiler(s) of the C1s Eightpot.

From the little that I have read on the subject it appears the LB&SCR re-building of a Earl Marsh Atlantic locomotive project is concerned apparently the project team managed to track down and acquire an old Ivatt Atlantic boiler (apparently the Ivatt and the Marsh Atlantic loco boilers were virtually the same as each other) that was in rather good condition back in the early 2000s which will form the boiler of the new 'Beachy Head' Marsh Atlantic.

Below an ex LB&SCR 'Marsh Atlantic' in early BR days.

http://www.bing.com/images/search?view= ... exph=706&e

[Mickey]

...Back to Hawkshead and approaching Brookmans Park station on a down northbound goods train is a Gresley V2 travelling along the Down fast line, note the somersault stop signal showing an off indication but 'hanging wrong' and not a good off indication at all so I would say the signal wire could have done with a bit of adjusting?.

http://www.bing.com/images/search?view= ... 2.jpg&exph

[Eightpot]

Am I correct in thinking that that signal was controlled from Potters Bar box? If so, I recall it still being there in the 1950s, possibly it was replaced by a colour light one at the time that the new Potters Bar box was brought into use as part of the rebuilding of the station there. Must have been a bit of a 'pull' if operated from PB, or was it electrically operated? The next signals in the Down direction were (if I recall correctly) were a bracket/gantry type for both Slow and Main located about 1/4 mile north of Brookmans Park station. These were Distants for the Home pair by the Dixons Hill Road over bridge (now the site of Welham Green station) and controlled from Marshmoor box.

[Eightpot]

Hi Steve,

Thanks for the correction about the signals.

They did disappear, as this photo shows, stated to be c1938, it is certainly mid 1930s onwards.

LNER C2 3259 approaching Potters Bar c1938 v2.1.jpg

Eightpot, your image is probably too large to post, if you can edit it to around 200kb that will do the trick.

John

Apart from the wooden structure on the extreme left in this photo it would appear that there was no fence alongside the line then, but by the 1950s I recall one of concrete posts with wire threaded through horizontally.

[Mickey]

Am I correct in thinking that that signal was controlled from Potters Bar box?.

Well in that case it is possible that the signal arm could have been 'returning to danger' after the loco & tender along with the first few wagons had travelled over the 'block joint' ahead of the signal so returning the signal arm to danger when the train was stradling and occuping the next track circuit.