Fowler 2-6-4Ts at King's Cross?

[StevieG]

Mickey, although the pointwork at Copenhagen would have allowed a move back from the Down Fast to the "Up South London Goods" (used as the engine line for light engines to KX), and the track circuiting had IBJs that would have made it no problem, there wasn't actually a disc for that move. Strangely though, diagrams show that there was a 'dolly' in the right place - on the Up side of the DF, but that it applied for Down Slow to USLG. So a DF - USLG move could've been done, but without an applicable signal 'off'.
Of course a non-coupled banker could have stopped at Copenhagen's Home signals while the train carried on, and then been turned DF to (if free) the DS, then DS-DSLG, a signalled move.

[Mickey]

Mickey, although the pointwork at Copenhagen would have allowed a move back from the Down Fast to the "Up South London Goods" (used as the engine line for light engines to KX), and the track circuiting had IBJs that would have made it no problem, there wasn't actually a disc for that move. Strangely though, diagrams show that there was a 'dolly' in the right place - on the Up side of the DF, but that it applied for Down Slow to USLG. So a DF - USLG move could've been done, but without an applicable signal 'off'.
Of course a non-coupled banker could have stopped at Copenhagen's Home signals while the train carried on, and then been turned DF to (if free) the DS, then DS-DSLG, a signalled move.

Yeah I was thinking of that move Stevie so this is how it would have happened.

A Down express departs Kings Cross with a banking engine pushing in the rear of the train and about where the banker emerges from the exit at the north end of Gasworks tunnel the banker 'drops off' the rear of the train and then follows the rear of the Down express passed Belle Isle Up (box) and stops short of the Copenhagen Junction x3 Down line home signals carried on the bracket post (underneath the tall North London Railway bridge). The signalman meanwhile puts the Down fast line distant and home signal levers back in the frame with the banking engine drawing up to the Copenhagen Junction Down fast line home signal which has just returned to danger.

Providing the signalman in Copenhagen Junction hasn't accepted a train 'on the block' on the Down slow line from Belle Isle Down (box) or after 1933 Kings Cross box the signalman in Copenhagen Junction should 'block back inside home signal' on the Down slow line block instrument back to Belle Isle Down (box) or after 1933 Kings Cross box and after he receives an acknowledgement of the 'blocking back inside home signal' from the box in the rear he'll place the block indicator (needle) to TRAIN ON LINE on the Down slow line block instrument this is done to give added protection to the banking engine when it is standing on the Down slow line near the box as it is then a 'stationary obstruction or vehicle' standing within the 440 yards 'clearing point' of the Down slow line home signal.

Once the above procedure has been carried out the signalman in Copenhagen Junction will set the road up from the Down fast to Down slow line and pull off the Down fast to Down slow line stop signal which may have required a 'line clear' release from Holloway South down (box) to clear the signal and if it did and assuming that this was a regular shunting move the SHUNTING INTO FORWARD SECTION regulation probably would have been authorised between both boxes(?). Anyway the banking engine passes the Down fast to Down slow line home signal after it has been pulled off and moves through the crossing and onto the Down slow line with the signalman returning the stop signal to danger behind it and once passed Copenhagen Junction (box) the signalman gives TRAIN OUT OF SECTION for both the Down express and banking engine and 'clears' the Down fast line block instrument back to Belle Isle Down (box) or after 1933 Kings Cross box. If after the signalman in Copenhagen Junction has given TRAIN OUT OF SECTION for both the Down express and banking engine he is then offered another train on the Down fast line he mite 'refuse' the train if the banking engine could be crossed over quickly from the Down slow line across to the Up Engine line through the Down fast line?. The reason why a train that maybe offered on to him on the Down fast line would be 'refused' is because the banking engine while crossing over from the Down slow line across to the Up Engine line through the Down fast line it would 'infringe' or fail the 440 yards 'clearing point' beyond the Down fast line home signal so by the Copenhagen Junction signalman 'refusing' a train on the Down fast line the train that has been refused would be held back at the Belle Isle Down (box) home signal standing at danger or after 1933 Kings Cross last controlled colour light signal.

On the other hand if the banking engine was a bit slow and another Down train had already departed Kings Cross on the Down fast line the signalman may have decided to let the banking engine wait/stand where it was on the Down slow near the box and run the following train on the Down fast line passed the standing banking engine?.

After the banking engine departs the Down slow line and crosses back over onto the Up Engine line heading towards Belle Isle Up (box) the signalman in Copenhagen Junction if the SHUNTING INTO FORWARD SECTION was authorised between Copenhagen Junction and Holloway South Down (box) on the Down slow line it will be 'cancelled off' (or withdrawn) on the block to Holloway South Down (box) and he would 'normalise the crossover points' and also give OBSTRUCTION REMOVED 'on the block' and the block indicator returned to normal back to Belle Isle Down (box) or after 1933 Kings Cross box after which and 'normal' block working would resume on the Down slow line through Belle Isle and also if a train was 'offered on' to the Copenhagen Junction signalman on the Down fast line and it had been previously 'refused' while he was crossing over the banking engine from the Down slow to the Up Engine line through the Down fast line once the points levers had been restored to the 'normal' position in the frame and the 440 yards 'clearing point' beyond the Down fast line home signal was again free then the signalman in Copenhagen Junction could accept another train on the Down fast line.

With the amount of constant traffic that was run along the Down fast and Down slow lines out of Kings Cross between the 1900s & 1950s and through Belle Isle it may have been easier to allow a banking engine pushing in the rear of a Down express to go through to Holloway North Down (box) rather than to go as far as Belle Isle and 'turn back' at Copenhagen Junction but at the end of the day the GN & LNER didn't hold to banking departing Down expresses.

[StevieG]

Mickey, although the pointwork at Copenhagen would have allowed a move back from the Down Fast to the "Up South London Goods" (used as the engine line for light engines to KX), and the track circuiting had IBJs that would have made it no problem, there wasn't actually a disc for that move. Strangely though, diagrams show that there was a 'dolly' in the right place - on the Up side of the DF, but that it applied for Down Slow to USLG. So a DF - USLG move could've been done, but without an applicable signal 'off'.
Of course a non-coupled banker could have stopped at Copenhagen's Home signals while the train carried on, and then been turned DF to (if free) the DS, then DS-DSLG, a signalled move.

" Yeah I was thinking of that move Stevie so this is how it would have happened.

A Down express departs Kings Cross with a banking engine pushing in the rear ..... etc., etc., etc. "

Blimey Mickey, talk about spell out every minute detail !!
Still, good for readers who don't know a lot about signalling I suppose.

Can't say I know a lot about when Belle Isle Down was operational, but it would've been all Absolute Block I expect.

But by the 1950s, when King's Cross electric box was working with Copenhagen Jn. both Down roads were track circuited throughout, at least to Copenhagen Tunnel entrance, and Copenhagen box permitted trains to approach by Acceptance Levers (as did Holloway South Down box after Copenhagen was abolished), so Copenhagen either accepted each train that KX described ('offered') by bell, or he didn't, according to the situation.

As to Copenhagen putting on 'Shunt into Forward Section' for light engines from either Down road or from Goods & Mineral, and needing to stop and cross back over, that wasn't necessary, as CJ had a 2-aspect (R/G) colour-light Starter a short distance inside the tunnel, so that such light engines could be in 'Station Limits' whilst at a stand.

As to your thought about 'bankers' not dropping off at Copenhagen because the Down Fast might've been busy, and instead continuing to push as far as Holloway North Down, I'd have thought that the situation would've been at least as bad as at Copenhagen, perhaps a bit worse, as there was no 'turn-in' off the /DF at HND, and 'bankers' could only get out of the way of a following train by stopping, and crossing to one of the Up lines, which would have needed a margin between trains on the Up Fast, and possibly the Up Slow as well if that (or the Up Goods / Up Coal) was where it would have been crossed to.

Any 'No banking' policy would have avoided all such problem/delay situations, but at the risk of trains' engines of unassisted Down expresses etc. being unable to top 'Holloway bank' without assistance being summoned.

[rockinjohn]

Well Mickey/Stevie & all,seems I let the "genie out the bottle"on that one!such comprehensive answers from both parties deserves praise,it always surprised me a "cold "engine(without assistance) had to surmount that obstacle on Departure Ex.KX & of note that both Euston&KX had those Banks but handled the Down Express Departures in different ways,a gradient profile on both lines would prove intresting maybe to 10 miles out @ least one never got affected by downpours causing flooding, which appeared quite a few times from memory in the '50's &I expect pre that decade also, so causing havoc on the Departures,I assume that issue was solved in the years that followed & that Question may provoke another "Genie" Episode?

[Mickey]

Blimey Mickey, talk about spell out every minute detail !!
Still, good for readers who don't know a lot about signalling I suppose.

Can't say I know a lot about when Belle Isle Down was operational, but it would've been all Absolute Block I expect.

But by the 1950s, when King's Cross electric box was working with Copenhagen Jn. both Down roads were track circuited throughout, at least to Copenhagen Tunnel entrance, and Copenhagen box permitted trains to approach by Acceptance Levers (as did Holloway South Down box after Copenhagen was abolished), so Copenhagen either accepted each train that KX described ('offered') by bell, or he didn't, according to the situation.

As to Copenhagen putting on 'Shunt into Forward Section' for light engines from either Down road or from Goods & Mineral, and needing to stop and cross back over, that wasn't necessary, as CJ had a 2-aspect colour-light Starter a short distance inside the tunnel, so that such light engines could be in 'Station Limits' whilst at a stand.

As to your thought about 'bankers' not dropping off at Copenhagen because the Down Fast might've been busy, and instead continuing to push as far as Holloway North Down, I'd have thought that the situation would've been at least as bad as at Copenhagen, perhaps a bit worse, as there was no 'turn-in' off the DF at HND, and 'bankers' could only get out of the way of a following train by stopping, and crossing to one of the Up lines, which would have needed a margin between trains on the Up Fast, and possibly the Up Slow as well if that (or the Up Goods / Up Coal) was where it would have been crossed to.

Any 'No banking' policy would have avoided all such problem/delay situations, but at the risk of trains' engines of unassisted Down expresses etc. being unable to top 'Holloway bank' without assistance being summoned.

Ha ha ha... well to be honest Stevie it did take me awhile to write that post out but once I started I thought I may as well finish it.

Yes you are right Stevie regards to a banking engine 'pushing in the rear' of a Down express as far as Holloway North Down (box) because it wouldn't have been much better than pushing it as far as Copenhagen Junction either and 'turning it back' there so banking a Down express as far as the top of the Holloway bank at Holloway North Down and still having to 'turn the engine back' by crossing it back over onto the Up lines(s) opposite Holloway North Up (box) would have been just as hard work to do. Also to cross a banking engine over from the Down fast line over onto the Up fast line with the amount of traffic running back in those days it would be possibly quite normal for the banking engine having to wait on the Down fast line and 'blocking it' because it was waiting for a 'margin' (a path) to be crossed over onto the Up lines because a light engine (or a train of ECS) crossing over between Holloway North Down and Holloway North Up boxes it would require a 'clear block' on the Up fast line between Holloway North Up and Finsbury Park No.4 because the light engine crossing over onto the Up fast line would infringe the 440 yards 'clearing point' of the Holloway North Up up fast line home signal.

With regards to the signalling when Belle Isle Down (box) was still open until 1933 I just naturally assumed it would have been Absolute block working on both Down lines to Copenhagen Junction which it was but to be honest I know very little about Belle Isle Down (box) and as for the 'set up' when the 1933 Kings Cross (box) had taken over the signalling on the Down lines towards Copenhagen Junction I just 'assumed' it was still Absolute block working by 3-position block instruments in both boxes I didn't actually know what the arrangements were with the use of 'Acceptance levers' but with 'Acceptance levers' I would assume if the Copenhagen Junction signalman wanted to 'refuse a train' from Kings Cross he just didn't reverse (or pull off) the Acceptance lever?.

[strang steel]

Nothing to do with axle weight. It's all to do with the necessity of handling the traffic within the limited number of locos that could be turned around and maintained on Top Shed, combined with the pathing in and out of KX: adding an extra loco or two that could only fulfill a single job was NBG.

OK, I accept the point made here; but who said the locos had to be based at Top Shed? Hornsey would have been just as logical, and the heavy ECS would have to be brought in and taken out by something, so the extra paths would not be necessary if the loco on the up ECS was booked in with a train which would depart just before the overnight sleeper ECS was scheduled to be taken to the carriage sidings (from what I remember from reading the books, these were the most troublesome trains to get quickly up Holloway bank and out the way). Whether the loco gave the departing train a brief push down the platform to the starting signal or not, all it would need to do is cross over to the relevant platform road and back onto the sleeper ECS. I'm sure it could be found work to do up the hill in between visits to the terminus. Even shunting cold locos around the shed area needed a decent amount of power.

[Hatfield Shed]

... I accept the point made here; but who said the locos had to be based at Top Shed? Hornsey would have been just as logical...

AIUI, broadly Top Shed handled the passenger work, Hornsey the freight. You would need someone at least at shed foreman level to explain whether your logical suggestion would have been acceptable.

[Mickey]

I suspect that if King Cross locomen had to use ex-LMS tank locos for any work on the GN they would have been wholeheartedly despised by all concerned and possibly wouldn't have lasted very long at Top shed or Hornsey for that matter before being transferred back to either Kentish Town, Cricklewood or Willesden sheds on the LMR. I watched a dvd featuring Jim Lester a former Southern Region fireman at Nine Elms shed during the 1960s until the shed closed in July 1967 saying that when a number of ex-GWR 0-6-0 57xx pannier tanks were allocated to Nine Elms for use on ECS workings between Clapham Junction and Waterloo the Nine Elms locomen hated them and wanted there ex-LSWR M7 0-4-4 tanks back!.

[rockinjohn]

Hi well in the era any "tanks"marooned in the KX/Hornsey area betwixt "Peaks" or otherwise could be found on ECS work in &out of the "X" Hatfields (34C)N7's/Hitchin (34D)L1's along with Hornsey(34B)allocation of N1's& L1's,and as stated in a previous post on the subject showing whence they came &went after,apart from the regulars I actually rode albeit very slowly, behind from the"Park" to "X"on one of the Fowlers/the Blk 5&the Standard 5MT that all found their way on to locals in the period mentioned, out of the three I'm surprised if the Fowler was actually on (34A) allocation during its time think (34B)unlike the other two.

[Eightpot]

I can recall seeing the A5 at Kings Cross on the Easter weekend 1958, and one of the Fowler 2-6-4s at Hertford North around that time.

[rockinjohn]

Well on further investigation A5 "69814" did in actual fact haul a peak, around 5.15pm EX.Finsbury Park to Hatfield the only one?My couple of sightings were on the afternoon parcel ECS that came up "the Creep"@ Ashburton Grove for a runaround, before leaving for the "X"and yes soon gone to as I thought for Colwick(38A) just a few weeks ex. works, so ok for the modellers to have an A5 in the Kings Cross area.

[Hatfield Shed]

[tangent]And rather wonderfully for those that fool around with OO, nearly all the tanks required for KX suburban area in the last decade of BR steam now have a RTR model, with J67 and J69 announced: now, how about an N5, one of which lurked at Hatfield for two months in summer 59?[/tangent]

[rockinjohn]

Hi, not so sure of the J67/J69 on passenger work in the Area,but Hitchin(34D) had a couple which did turn up,in the "KX" area, maybe boiler washouts or light repairs if (34C&34D) workloads were to great,& any transfers/loan locos to or from Neasden went via Top Shed,and I thought the "Sonic"A5 in Blk lined livery with "new"Small BR emblem setting the model visually near perfection,model owners may see/feel the running differently.

[Hatfield Shed]

Hatfield shed (34C) had J67 and J69 allocated occasionally in the 1950s to cover the goods yard work as the N1 and J52 classes were steadily withdrawn, until the DM 200hp and DE 350hp arrived and largely put an end to the steam shunter requirement. Though even as late as 1958 Hatfield had one of the last J52 in service, and in 1959, for a couple of months in the the summer N5 69266 appeared.

[Eightpot]

The last J52 at Hatfield was 68867.