The diesel era 1960s, 70s & 80s

[StevieG]

I didn't think of looking to see if the old spotters' platform is still there; but if it is, I'd think that you'd have a job reliably seeing much other than tree-tops when the leaves are fully out!

It's probably still there Stevie i would say under those bushes. Thats one thing i can't stand about our railways since the 1980s is the mess of bushes, weeds, shrubs & trees that have been allowed to grow up beside all lines around the country, it makes the railway look a right MESS!!!.

Staying briefly in more modern times, it's the greenery that's where it shouldn't be - between, along and within tracks, that can be seen in or from operational station platforms, that most gives an impression of neglect.

Around a year ago, I one day noticed an ex-LNER main-line example that astonished me.

A chance glance from a passing fast train through New Barnet revealed that the Down Fast end of the long DF - Down Slow crossover had been plain-lined; whether because of a cracked crossing, defective normally-open switch rail, or other cause, I know not.
Surprising to me was that it appeared this crossover had been OOU for some time.
But what first drew my attention to the situation, and the real source of my amazement, was that in the '6-foot', all along the increasing 'wide-way' between the DF and DS from where the South signal box once stood and the south end of the station platform, and so right through the middle of this crossover, was quite a line of small bushes which had managed to reach a height of 2-3 feet high!

I am pleased to say that, on looking again when zipping through a couple of days ago, the bushes had gone and K2169A (the aforementioned plain-lined point end) appeared to be complete once again.

[sandwhich]

I only remember Western Sidings as a dmu servicing depot, up until 1976 it was a 24/7 operation but in its last two years until closure in 1978 it became a 0800-1600ish Mon-Fri operation, but I was told that before the diesels came it was used to service the Tees Tyne and Yorkshire Pullman stock that arrived in the Cross at lunchtime and then departed at 1700 and 1730. I don't know if anybody can confirm this.

[StevieG]

I only remember Western Sidings as a dmu servicing depot, up until 1976 it was a 24/7 operation but in its last two years until closure in 1978 it became a 0800-1600ish Mon-Fri operation, but I was told that before the diesels came it was used to service the Tees Tyne and Yorkshire Pullman stock that arrived in the Cross at lunchtime and then departed at 1700 and 1730. I don't know if anybody can confirm this.

Western Sidings presumably dropped to 'day shift-only' from Nov. '76 (the 8th?) when Hornsey 313 EMUs took over running all inner suburban services (launched as the first 'Great Northern Electrics'), mostly running to/from Moorgate ('Northern City Line'), [and from which time I think, suburban services to/from Moorgate (via the 'City Widened lines' and KX), and to/from Broad Street, ceased]. This would presumably have left 'Western' dealing only with such DMUs which were needed for outer suburban services, until the full KX-Royston electric outer suburban service began in Feb.'78.

As regards pre-diesel use of 'Western', in case of any help, in 'diesel' times Finsbury Park No.3 box, which controlled the exits from the sidings, and No.2 box (a.k.a. 'Clarence Yard' unofficially), certainly had mechanical signalling which catered for trains ex 'Western', reversing in any of the Slow or Canonbury Line platforms of Finsbury Park station, and going 'wrong direction' ('Up') over either of two of the three Down Carriage/Goods lines to No.2 box, from where they could continue to either Canonbury (via No.1 box, for Broad Street) or King's Cross (via Holloway North Up box ; including for Moorgate via KX York Road).
Such trains for King's Cross then going along the Up Carriage line from No.2 box to 'North Up', by passing under the main lines and via Ashburton Grove box (beyond which this line was informally known as 'the Creep-Up'), and thence from 'North Up' on into King's Cross.
So if the same signalling arrangements preceded the diesel era, the 'pullman' sets could have gone back to KX via this route (if necessary, running-round between FP Nos.2 & 3 boxes [which was also fully-signalled], in order to get a north end loco which may have drawn a train out of 'Western', onto the south end of the train).

[manna]

G'Day Gents

Or could the Pullmans have been run back along one of the through sidings, from Western sidings, and then crossed over on the ladder crossing, to the up fast or slow, just before Holloway, (which I think we discussed a page or two back, or another thread )

manna

[sandwhich]

Yes there was a "through" road that left Holloway CS known as high level where stock was pulled out by the yard pilot a locomotive then dropped onto the other end and then crossed over all running lines and then ran into Kings Cross, the northern end of this so called through road was used to stable units from Western Sidings, if it was ever a running route then it was well before my time.

[StevieG]

G'Day Gents

Or could the Pullmans have been run back along one of the through sidings, from Western sidings, and then crossed over on the ladder crossing, to the up fast or slow, just before Holloway, (which I think we discussed a page or two back, or another thread )

manna

I don't know if the layout at 'Western' was ever such that a loco could have reached the south end of a set before it would have left the sidings towards the station, unless some sort of 'pilot' loco would've drawn it out into the station, then propelled it back onto a loco to take the train ECS into London that may have already been placed on another road : Then (after pilot shunted out of the way) propelled (if such were authorised) out into the station before heading south towards No.2 box for KX -
- Or the 'long road' might have been used to get to Holloway, although my impression was that its south end was always supposed to be available for moves ex Holloway CS as described by sandwhich : Certainly by the mid-'60s, there was a north-facing 'Limit Of Shunt' board by No.3 box's main lines Down Distant signals (7-armed) gantry, beyond which southward movements should not have normally passed.

It might be thought that another way would've been a pilot to draw the train out into the station, then put the ECS loco on its south end there : But there were no calling-on signals on the running lines for entering the platform lines when occupied, but if the ECS loco was already in 'Western', there were ground discs at both exits from the sidings, under the 3-miniature-armed principal exit signals, which could have been used for such a move.
In any case, even without calling-on signals on the running lines, the Rules and Local Instructions might at one time have allowed a main Home signal to be cleared to put an ECS loco onto its train in a platform once the ECS loco had stopped at it, provided that electrical lock controls (if any, then) on the signal(s) lever/s were arranged to permit it (in diesel days all platforms were track-circuited and I don't think the running lines' Homes could be cleared to an occupied platform).

[manna]

G'Day Gents

It was just a thought, seeing that there was a through road, even the light engine could have come from Holloway, and could there not have been a local agreement, within Station Limits to allow the shunting of trains in and out of Western Sidings !!.

manna

[Mickey]

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[Boris]

Another one you may or may not know.
When approaching a junction from the rear the signalman at the previous box to the junction would stop the train before the box then as it passed the box would hold a green light of flag to indicate that the junction ahead could be blocked by a train approaching that junction from the other line or crossing it and so to approach the next box, [junction] at a cautionary speed. If I remember it was called "Block regulation 5"
Rule 40 in the 1950 Rule Book

[Mickey]

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[Mickey]

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[StevieG]

" .... I would presume that Finsbury Park no.3 would still have to put a shunt 'on the block' to Finsbury Park no.5 (3-3-2 bell Shunting into forward section) if this was authorised between Finsbury Park no.3 and Finsbury Park no.5 over the Down carriage, the Down slow no.2 and the Down slow no.1 lines between both boxes?. ... "

.... For 'Carriage' read 'Canonbury'.

[Mickey]

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[StevieG]

" .... I would presume that Finsbury Park no.3 would still have to put a shunt 'on the block' to Finsbury Park no.5 (3-3-2 bell Shunting into forward section) if this was authorised between Finsbury Park no.3 and Finsbury Park no.5 over the Down carriage, the Down slow no.2 and the Down slow no.1 lines between both boxes?. ... "

.... For 'Carriage' read 'Canonbury'.

Funny that you should say that Stevie i was wondering if it was the Down Canonbury or Down carriage line to be honest.

With those disc-signals (L.N.E.R. known as dollies) mounted on the wooden posts at the south end of Finsbury Park station platforms worked by Finsbury Parkk no.3 i presume that to put a train behind those dollies to reverse either to go back into Western sidings or heading off towards Finsbury Park no.2 direction the Shunt into forward section (3-3-2 bells) and Shunt withdrawn (8 bells) would be authorised between Finsbury Park no.3 and Finsbury Park no.5 boxes over the Down slow no.1, Down slow no.2 and the Down Canonbury lines?.

Either John and Dave Cockle would know?.

[ Just to be clear, when I said 'Canonbury' instead of 'Carriage', I was referring to the 4th line through the station (Platform 10).]

John or Dave may well know; I'd think DC would be sure to.

You'd think 3-3-2 / 8 would be the thing to have been used : I don't recall hearing of that being the case though, but really I just don't know.
As the section was so short (and so it could have been considered that, even for such a shunt, there should be a clear Clearing Point at No.5), it might have been that shunts were just ILC?'d as 2-2-1 or whatever on the block + TES, then 3-5 Cancelled when they'd gone, but then you'd think there would've needed to be some way of No.5 knowing that it was just a shunt and not one to go forward northwards: - Maybe this was one of the cases when the FK-GY (No.1-No.5) telegraph circuit on the block shelves was used as a sort of train describer, but again I don't really know [I clearly remember being at No.3 once, and a 1-3 (L.Engine for Bounds Green or south thereof) was offered from No.2 and was immediately accompanied by "L" on the FK-GY, meaning it was to go back into Clarence Yard (FP Diesel Depot - "L" for 'Loco' ), and I then realised that I'd also heard "L" once (possibly twice) just before that; doubtless it was Ashburton (& No.1?) telling the next box the same thing.]

P.S. While passing again yesterday, as it was sunny, had a good look through the tree-tops for the 'spotters' platform' near the Fins. Park - Oxford Road footbridge, but couldn't see it - I think it's gone.

[Mickey]

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