C1 at Grantham Date?

[Iron Duke]

I have found this interesting scrapbook picture, obviously taken at Grantham.
It looks as if this train is coming off the Nottingham line.
Can anyone put an approximate date to this or indeed add any further information?

Thanks in anticipation.

[JASd17]

The working looks like some kind of Up excursion. Leading vehicle is a GNR type.

The loco has a glass sightscreen on the cab. The best guess as to when this was fitted to 4442 is late 1932, so the date will be 1933 onwards.

Apart from some months at Sheffield in 1934, it was a KX loco. It was also formerly used as the Royal engine, the company crest can just be made out on the rear splasher.

John

[JASd17]

The loco has the Class painted on the bufferbeam.

As 4442 was never a NE Area loco, this must have been put on after March 1938, when it became an all-Area policy to display the class type on the bufferbeam.

So late 1930s. Possibly after a visit to Doncaster ending on 9-4-38.

John

[Andy W]

In the summer 1939 "Programme of Standard Times for Excursion and other Special Trains" (GN Section) Train 41 is a returning Tote day excursion, 4.50 p.m. from Nottingham Victoria, stopping at the Racecourse Station (Also The Hall Horse Dock if any horse boxes needed attaching), then Grantham 5.35 to 5.36 p.m, Peterborough North, Huntingdon, Hitchin and Hatfield, arriving at KX at 7.38 p.m.

It left KX at 10.25 a.m. that morning, arriving at Nottingham Victoria at 1.13 p.m. Stock was booked to be (Vest) BF, FKL, SOF (42), OF, RT, TO (64), 2 T (8 bodied), BT.

"Tickets to be collected en route in both directions. Chief Ticket Inspector Mitchell will arrange. Police Department will arrange for Police to travel in both directions. Guards - Station Master, Kings Cross."

[JASd17]

Brilliant stuff Andy W.

High summer certainly suits the light in the photo.

The leading carriage looks like a BCK.

Not too late for a good day out!

John

[Iron Duke]

As always some really excellent detective work, thank you both for you replies !

My Father was a collector of "cuttings" like this, some are loose but others have been stuck into a scrapbook.
I have quite a few, but unfortunately he also trimmed off the details relating to the picture, e.g. date, photographer etc.
I will post some more as they always seem to make an interesting discussion point and the answer is always presented - thanks again !

[61070]

This photograph of Iron Duke’s, and in particular its summer 1939 date suggested in this thread, could be something of a revelation. Firstly, the photo shows that Grantham North’s tall co-acting down platform starting signal post was uprooted and moved northward in the late 1930s, when the down platform was extended.

For comparison, the picture below dates from the introduction of the Coronation train in July 1937. It’s a ‘screen grab’ taken from a film in the Lincolnshire Film Archive (i.e. it's not BBC copyright) and is a view from the doorway of Grantham North 'box.

Note that, comparing this with Iron Duke’s later pic of No.4442:
o the down main line platform has been extended (though without a face to the bay platform - see the railings on the left; they are still in place today); I haven’t yet been able to date this extension;
o the water column and the signal post have both been moved north, nearer the signal box, presumably in connection with the platform extension;
o the main line distant arm (of Barrowby Road box) has been removed from beneath he Grantham North down main line platform starting signal.

Now re. the final point above, on October 17th 1937 all main line signal boxes between Grantham North and Barkston South were abolished - including Barrowby Road (which, however, continued in operation to control the Nottingham lines). Controlled and automatic colour light signals were installed on that stretch of the ECML.

I'd thought that the Grantham North down main platform starting signals for the main and the Nottingham lines were replaced by a colour light signal from this date. So, secondly, this photo of No.4442 appears to show that these signals remained as somersault semaphores after October 1937 until at least the date of the photograph (suggested as summer 1939), though with the Barrowby Road main line distant arm removed.

Just wondering, though, if there could have been a southbound Train 41 in the late afternoon at Grantham off the Nottingham line before summer 1939 which could date the photo as, potentially, earlier??

Really interesting stuff!

[JASd17]

I don't have any information at present, do the GNRS issues on Grantham show this?

Also, on Iron Duke's original picture, does the platform extension look new? Possibly.

Many interesting questions.

John

[61070]

Hello and thanks John - I checked the relevant GN News features before taking the plunge on this. The down platform extension is 'dotted in' on the relevant diagrams, but I couldn't see it referenced in the copy - though I may have missed something. No track layout changes were associated with this extension, and for that reason it may not have been given attention; ditto signalling which I think is not, in itself, the primary feature of the series, signalling changes being principally referenced in association with track layout alterations. I am in the process of dropping a line to the author though.

[Iron Duke]

Thanks to your replies, this is intriguing.

I have managed to dig out another "cutting" taken at Grantham, again no date, photographer etc.
The picture was a bit crumpled but I have managed to tidy it up a bit.

ID

[JASd17]

Appropriate number for the Forum!

This is 3279 in its 4-cylinder form, so before September 1936 when it went into the Works and was rebuilt as a 2-cylinder loco, this took until April 1938!

Sight screen on the cabside probably fitted late in 1932. So mid 1930s is my best effort. The loco was at KX until Feb 1935 when it moved to New England. Presumably more likely to be seen at Grantham after the move?

Another view of the signals in the background, as discussed in previous posts. North box just out of view to the left.

Nice to have a chat to workev about 'matters Grantham' at Wakefield over the weekend.

John

[LNER4479]

Hi there,

Both these pictures appear in 'The LNER Remembered', a book from some years ago now (I don't have it to hand; it's in my Dad's collection - I just photocopied the pages I needed for my Grantham research).

The shot of 4442 is Plate 25 and is dated 3.7.39 and stated to be working a returning race special - so sounds like the original caption compiler had the right facts to hand.

The shot of 3279 is Plate 26 and dates the photo 5.6.33.

I had worked out that the tall starter signal was repositioned (rather than replaced) when the platform was extended. There are some wartime views in the recent Coster book on the Great Northern Main Line (Part Two), taken on 17.4.44 which clearly show the signal still in situ. An unusual but most interesting choice of photos, showing station nameboards covered up and windows blacked out!

[JASd17]

Thanks for the dates LNER4479.

Note to self: stick to the facts that you can be reasonably sure of. I know the 3279 photo was within the dates I had given, but the further comment about allocation, and by implication workings, was clearly misleading.

It would be nice to find out when the platform extension went in too.

John

[Iron Duke]

Thank you all for your answers, including the questions they have thrown up too.
Strange that the plate numbers (25 & 26) run consecutively, is this book still in print?

Most of my Father's cuttings are from a selection of many water damaged periodicals.
They were rescued after a domestic flood at a neighbours house in the late 70's.
They were due for disposal but knowing that I had an interest in railways he asked him if he could have them.
He spent quite a long time cutting out the best ones for a number of scrapbooks he made up covering roads, railways & aircraft.
Unfortunately he trimmed them down to suit the space on each page, removing any caption or clue etc.

On the up side they do provide the opportunity for the railway ones (LNER) to be identified on here !

ID

[61070]

Good to learn that the tall somersault starter at the north end was still in place until at least 17 April 1944. I'm currently working up a 'broad brush' signalling history for Grantham, so that's another piece of the story more accurately buttoned down.

What a beautiful signal alongside No.3279. Lots of soldering practice if you choose to model that one, Robert!!

ps glad to hear that workev's been out and about, John.