Train formations on ex GCR Main Line in the mid 1930s

belbink · Post by **belbink** » Sat Aug 04, 2007 3:21 pm

I am building a layout based on the ex-GCR main line (Marylebone northwards) in the mid 1930s and would like to know more about the train formations on the LNER at this time.
From photo evidence most of the stock was Gresley standard corridor. Information on the following trains would be particulary useful:
3:20PM Marylebone - Manchester
4:55PM Marylebone - Manchester 'The Promptitude'. Photos suggest the following Gresley corridor stock: BK3/1st-3rd Composite/Kitch-Rest 1st/Open 3rd/BK3.
5:00PM Marylebone - Nottingham 'The Nottingham Buffet'.
Would also like to talk generally to anyone interested in this period/location.

badwolf · Post by **badwolf** » Thu Aug 09, 2007 9:40 pm

If you obtain a copy of the book `Robinson locos a pictorial history` there are a good few photos of trains in there from this period.
The book is still available from Nick Tozer books although officially out of print.

belbink · Post by **belbink** » Fri Aug 10, 2007 11:42 pm

Thanks for the reply. I take it that you mean the Haresnape/Rowledge book. I do have a copy and it does indeed have one of the best views of the 4:55 train that I have seen. The book is also very good in that it generally gives details of the date, location and the specific train photographed.
However, like so many photos taken of approaching trains it is difficult to see much detail past the third coach. Where these photos do score is that you can see details of the coaches such as whether they have truss-rod underframes or the later angle-iron type. This gives a clue to the age of the coaches in use.
Thanks once again for your contribution.

9E · Post by 9E » Sat Aug 11, 2007 2:18 pm

I’m not modelling your time period/location (my own interests are the CLC and the Woodhead route shortly after nationalisation), but hope I can be of some help with your query.

C.J. Allen’s “Titled Trains of Great Britain” states that the formation for the 3.20pm Marylebone-Manchester (The Sheffield Special) following the introduction of standard (Gresley) stock was:

BTK, TK, TO, RF, CK, BTK, LMS BCK (The LMS BCK ran to Halifax)

From what I’ve read it would seem that in general GC expresses changed from the early to late 30s from trains formed with Diagram 115 thirds and D.130 or D.137 Composites (all with turnbuckle underframes) to trains formed with D.155/D.298 Thirds towards the end (generally with angle truss underframes). No end door composites were allocated to the GC (at least when new) as far as I know.

The passenger brakes tended to involve more variety BTK(4)s and BTK(5)s seemed to be common (at least during the war years from what I could see in “Wartime Woodhead”), but then the GC also received BTK(3)s. LNER Standard Gresley Carriages features a B17-hauled 2.20pm Manchester-Marylebone with a D.40 BTK(3) at the front (with a CK or FK behind). This vehicle was former East Coast stock cascaded to the GC when the latest stock was introduced on the EC.

The dining car provision was more straightforward with a D.10C RF coupled to a D.27A (TO) being pretty much standard for all Manchester-Marylebone services with a restaurant car until the early 1950s. Not sure what was used in “The Nottingham Buffet” though.

Looking at the photo of the 3.20pm to Manchester shown in the C. J. Allen book it shows a mid-1930s B17 hauled service formed:

BTK(4) (D.39 or D.114), TK (D.115), TO (D.27A), RF (D.10C), CK (probably D.130) and two more coaches I can’t make out. All stock has turnbuckle underframes.

As you’ve been working out formations from photos you may already have it, but the late Michael Harris’s LNER Standard Gresley Carriages. Mallard Books, 1998 is very useful. It doesn’t cover the end door stock (meant to be in a second volume which sadly never materialised), but as far as the GC section is concerned that is less important for your period as the move to end door stock was a bit slower on the GC.

belbink · Post by **belbink** » Sun Aug 12, 2007 4:03 pm

Thanks for the information '9E', especially the 3:20PM train formation. There is a photo in 'The Great Central in LNER Days', P34/35, showing an 'unidentified down express' pulled by B17 Somerleyton Hall. It appears to have the coaches which you describe. Until now I had not noticed the trailing coach after the BTK, which could well be the LMS BCK. If so then there is a good chance that this is the 3:20PM. Somerleyton Hall was a Gorton engine and could well have been rostered on the 3:20PM which was pulled by Gorton B17s on alternate days.
Regarding the Nottingham Buffet coach, this is a bit of a mystery. I have the 1973 issue of Michael Harris's book, 'Gresley's Coaches'. It only lists one Gresley standard buffet car on the GC section, No 51769, and this is believed to have been used on the Manchester - Cleethorps train. I wonder if the later book by Harris has information on other buffet cars? I have a note which says there is a picture of the 3:20PM in 'London Steam inthe 1930s'. I no longer have access to this book but if anyone has a copy I would be grateful if they could take a look and see if they can identify the buffet car.

9E · Post by 9E » Sun Aug 12, 2007 6:26 pm

It looks like we are describing the same photograph as 2840 is the loco in the photo I described. The front cover of 'The Great Central in LNER Days 2' shows D10 5505 piloting B17 2816 on the 3.20pm near Preston Road in 1935. It's not that clear, but the formation could well be that previously described strengthened by a D.186 TTO and a D.115 TK at the front.

I fished out my copy of Backtrack Vol.9 No.1 (Jan 1995) which features an article on LNER Buffet Cars. By happy chance it mentions that the first 2 buffet cars on the GC section (apart from the buffet trials in GC days) were GN 58' 6" open thirds rebuilt to Diagram GN 78T in 1933. These two (52062 and 52063) were put to work on Mansfield/Nottingham-Marylebone and Manchester-Cleethorpes services (the D.167 buffet car you mentioned joined these two on the Clreethorpes services when new in 1937). The article features a photo of 52063 in BR days and a drawing for the diagram.

Now all you need is the rest of the formation!

belbink · Post by **belbink** » Tue Aug 14, 2007 3:59 pm

I had quite forgotten the Backtrack article. I have had a look and, as you say, it answers my questions regarding the GC buffet cars. Thanks for pointing it out. It looks like I am going to have to kit-bash a Gresley 3rd Open to provide the GN buffet car rebuild for my Nottingham rake.

robertcwp · Post by **robertcwp** » Fri Mar 07, 2014 10:57 am

Better late than never, here are the formations of the three services mentioned from the Summer of 1939:

jwealleans · Post by **jwealleans** » Fri Mar 07, 2014 11:19 am

What is a '10-bodied' Third?

JASd17 · Post by **JASd17** » Fri Mar 07, 2014 1:28 pm

I would think it refers to a 10 compartment Third to Diagrams 3B5 or 3B6, which had 120 seats.

There is an outline drawing of 3B5 in volume 3 of Dow's Great Central history.

John

jwealleans · Post by **jwealleans** » Fri Mar 07, 2014 2:54 pm

Thanks, John.

Atlantic 3279 · Post by **Atlantic 3279** » Sat Mar 08, 2014 6:36 pm

I imagine a half hour journey to work in one of those compartments would be plenty if it were full...

Chris Grouse · Post by **Chris Grouse** » Wed Mar 12, 2014 12:30 pm

A similar question, I'm modelling the GC in the Nottingham area in the early BR period, did many ex GCR coaches survive in passenger use past 1948? Or was it all ex LNER/LMS and MK1's? I'm told that a fair number of ex GC non corridor suburban coaches were still used well into the mid 1950's, but what about the Barnums and matchboard mainline stock?
I'm not too fussed about recreating exact rain formations from the 50's, as coaches weren't in permanently fixed rakes and could change from day to day, and my maximum train length is a loco and 6 bogie coaches, but it would be nice to get the trains 'looking right' if you know what I mean...
Currently my coaching stock is a mix of Maroon and Southern green MK1's(green for the Bournemouth trains), with a few Stanier coaches in blood and custard and a mixture of blood and custard & teak Gresley coaches, and also a set of 4 maroon ands set of 4 crimson MK1 suburbans.
More Gresley coaches and some GCR suburban coach kits are next on the agenda...

strang steel · Post by **strang steel** » Wed Mar 12, 2014 12:44 pm

This one made it into crimson & cream livery -

http://www.flickr.com/photos/22281745@N ... hZT-a6DQoc

and this one seems to have ended its service days with trips to the seaside -

http://www.gcr-rollingstocktrust.co.uk/ ... ce=sitemap

robertcwp · Post by **robertcwp** » Wed Mar 12, 2014 9:15 pm

Chris Grouse wrote:A similar question, I'm modelling the GC in the Nottingham area in the early BR period, did many ex GCR coaches survive in passenger use past 1948? Or was it all ex LNER/LMS and MK1's? I'm told that a fair number of ex GC non corridor suburban coaches were still used well into the mid 1950's, but what about the Barnums and matchboard mainline stock?
I'm not too fussed about recreating exact rain formations from the 50's, as coaches weren't in permanently fixed rakes and could change from day to day, and my maximum train length is a loco and 6 bogie coaches, but it would be nice to get the trains 'looking right' if you know what I mean...
Currently my coaching stock is a mix of Maroon and Southern green MK1's(green for the Bournemouth trains), with a few Stanier coaches in blood and custard and a mixture of blood and custard & teak Gresley coaches, and also a set of 4 maroon ands set of 4 crimson MK1 suburbans.
More Gresley coaches and some GCR suburban coach kits are next on the agenda...

Maroon and green Mark Is date things to 1956 or later. Mark I non-gangwayed stock appears not to have been common on the GC London Extension (and lined maroon only appeared on such stock c1959, non-gangwayed stock having been unlined prior to that time). Carriage workings specified the formations of trains. One set of stock for the York-Bournemouth was green but the other was supplied by the NER and would have been maroon in the post 1956 liveries. Crimson and cream didn't disappear overnight though.

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