1930s High Dyke to Frodingham ore wagons - liveries

[Atlantic 3279]

In contrast to the 50s / 60s period that most peaople seem to want to talk about, my interest in the High Dyke trains lies in the 1930s. It is possible from photographs to get an impression of the kind of wagons in use in that period, some evidently being LNER-owned with liveries according to standard company painting schedules. Does anybody please have any evidence for the liveries used on the kind of privately owned ore wagons that may have been in use in the period? Owning firms that may have been involved include for instance the Appleby Iron Co, Frodingham Iron Co, and Richard Thomas.

[61070]

Discussion about ironstone traffic pre-1950s will be very welcome - it's overdue some coverage. 'Off the top of my head' here are a few suggestions; you may have gone over this ground already, so apologies if some or all this is wasting your time.

1. Britain from Above has several aerial photos of iron and steel works around Scunthorpe in the 1930s - try 'Scunthorpe' in the search box. By registering you can zoom in.
For example, this image of the Appleby-Frodingham Works in October 1936 shows wagons in abundance: http://www.britainfromabove.org.uk/image/epw052034
It's far too high in altitude for livery detail, though perhaps helpful in terms of identifying types of wagon (loads are presumably mainly coal and ironstone, probably with some limestone) and the number of wagons per train.

2. Have you seen this index of references to PO wagons? http://www.steamindex.com/carrwagon/powindex.htm

3. Lincolnshire Archives and Archives offices for the areas where PO ironstone wagons may have been manufactured (for company records, which may include photo albums etc.).

4. Rocks by Rail (formerly the Rutland Railway Museum) has a collection of ironstone wagons though I can't find a detailed list. Presumably there are people there who know about them, and maybe even some archive material: http://www.rocks-by-rail.org/exhibits/#all and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rutland_Railway_Museum

5. Two members of this forum who may be able to advise are DaveF and Brush53Falcon - it might be worth PM-ing them.

6. Did TG Hepburn photograph ironstone trains in the 1930s?

[Pyewipe Junction]

Part 1 of The Great Central in LNER Days by David Jackson and Owen Russell has a whole chapter on this working, including two photos of train itself. The wagons shown are hoppers. One photo shows a train of steel hoppers in what looks like grey livery, whereas the other photo, which is a little murky, shows a D3 hauling a train of Appleby Iron Ore Company and Frodingham Iron & Steel Company hoppers, which look to me like they're wooden. Both of these photos are by T G Hepburn. There is also a photo of a train in the Frodingham area being loaded. This is composed of private and LNER wagons, a few low hoppers and the rest standard wooden mineral wagons.

Don't forget that this train had a guard's van at each end!

[Pyewipe Junction]

I should have mentioned that in Part 2 of The Great Central in LNER Days there is a chapter devoted to the development of the Frodingham complex, which may also be of interest.

[61070]

Ref. 6 above and Pyewipe's comment there's the published TG Hepburn photo of an O4 on ironstone passing South Box at Grantham on page 43 of LNER Steam at Grantham (Rev. A.C. Cawston) so I expect he took others. The steel hopper wagons in that shot have white lettering on the vertical part of the side plating, but it can't be made out (at least not by me) from the printed page.

[Atlantic 3279]

What an excellent start! I can get hold of a copy of Jackson & Russell quite easily - I've read it but had forgotten about the ore chapter. That only PO wagon reference source sounds very handy too for those of us who haven't bought every one of Bill Hudsons and Keith Turton's books.....

[DaveF]

I've had a look through my own photo collection, they are all post war and none have identifiable lettering on iron ore wagons.

However, there is a photo in Eric Tonks' book "The Ironstone Quarries of the Midlands, Part VIII South Lincolnshire" (now published by Booklaw) on page 57, taken at Buckminster Quarries.
This shows a rake of metal hoppers, like the ones in Rev. Cawston's photo (LNER Steam in Grantham) mentioned above.
The lettering on the vertical upper side plating is "STANTON".
The photo is dated as "about 1950" but I suspect it could be earlier judging by the wagon lettered "LNER" in big letters in the same photo.

Remember that there was other traffic on the High Dyke branch, namely trainloads of slack (fine coal) used in the calcining process until sometime after the second World War.
Various wagons seem to have been used for this coal, including private owners. On page 58 of the above book there is a wagon letterd "Wm CORY & SON Ltd LONDON", lettering curved over a symbol on the side of a wagon. Photo not dated.

In Volume 1 of the same series of books - (The Ironstone Quarries ....... An Introduction) there is a photo taken on 26th May 1945 of a very mixed rake of 7 and 8 plank wagons, some still with PO lettering.

Presumably pre war the coal would have been either in company or colliery owned wagons.

Note - calcining involved mixing the iron ore with coal slack and burning it for several weeks to burn off moisture at the end of which the iron content of the ore has effectively risen, thus reducing transport costs. There was also some chemical change in the ore as well.

I doubt there are many early photos of the High Dyke branch, for all the usual reasons regarding difficulty of getting there and most photographers seeming to prefer big green locos.

David

[DaveF]

In 1935 Stanton Ironworks published "The Quarries" , an account of their Ironstone, limestone and sand quarries. It was republished by Rutland Railway Museum (now Rocks by Rail), mine is the 1989 reprint.

It contains some photos, facing page 22 is an image (actually at Tilton) showing two of their hopper wagons with a rake in the distance plus a STANTON lettered 7 or 8 plank open wagon at the tippler used for loading the iron stone. I do know Tilton is not on the High Dyke branch, it is south of Melton Mowbray but I suspect the same types of wagons were used.

In the same book there is a photo of a dragline on an LMS weltrol with a 5 plank Stanton wagon being used as a runner under the jib. It is captioned as being for South Witham) (on the ex MR Saxby - Bourne line).

Of course there was a connection from this line to the High Dyke branch via Buckminster Sidings and Sewstern.

David

[Atlantic 3279]

I now have a batch of these wagons under construction, so although I'm partly repeating myself here, simply to save re-typing I've pasted in an appeal for information below this picture, in the hope of bringing the matter to the attention of somebody who might have answers.


I'd like to appeal to anybody with suitable knowledge, or a secret vault of 1930s Scunthorpe area photographs, for assistance with the matter of livery for the period before state control of these Appleby-Frodingham peak-ended 20 ton steel ore hoppers. I'm led to believe that bodies, before being bashed around and allowed to become filthy and corroded, were painted a rich reddish brown, possibly verging upon maroon. Precise colour isn't a problem if the models are finished in "rough service" condition anyway. The nature of the lettering on the wagons is more of a challenge. I have access to one very clear HMRS photo showing a brand new wagon in elaborate Appleby Iron Co Ltd (The United Steel Companies Ltd) livery, wearing the additional legend "steel plates". That's fine, but it is evident from other poorer pictures that this livery wasn't universal on the wagons. A photo of grimy wagons under the concrete footbridge at Frodingham shows one branded "Frodingham", plus possibly the words "Iron & Steel Co Ltd" but that part is very indistinct. A very restricted view of part of another wagon suggests that it wears a simpler version of the Appleby livery too, but I have no more to go on at present.

It would be nice to a have a variety of authentic brandings on these wagons....

I've just sent fundamentally the same question to Bryan Longbone, author of what has to be THE definitive book on Scunthorpe's railway history. If I find out anything useful I will of course share the information.

[JASd17]

Private Owner Wagons A Fifth Collection. Turton. Page 11.

The above ref. has a hopper wagon of the type you have cast Graeme. Appleby Iron Co. Ltd. The livery is basically black with white lettering, although there are some white panels with reverse lettering. I wonder if the solebars and headstocks are a different colour. Maybe red?

John

[JASd17]

Thinking about it, probably the same photo as the one you already have.

John