Returning to Grantham

[strang steel]

The C12 is superb. I love the subtle weathering on the side tanks illustrating where water has overflowed. And the loco lamps - what make are they? They look so much less obtrusive than those ones which seem about a scale 3ft tall I see occasionally elsewhere.

I see nothing wrong with having this in the Grantham thread, especially if it sparks further discussion about the real thing.

You say that you were on the coach shunt, do you have any memories of the make-up of the trains that presumably you were shunting coaches for? There are some photos around which show the formation of Boston, Lincoln and Nottingham trains but not always as good as personal recollections.

[61070]

Perhaps someone with access to the reliable record could confirm for me whether 1898 was the year of No.4040's construction or of its rebuilding?

The same picture is in the Green Bible with the caption: 1031 Series, Extended cab roof, shorter chimney. Ross pop safety valves.

The 1031 series was the final series of GNR Class J6 built by Dübs&Co in 1896. 1040/4040's Works No. was 3379, if I've added right. Looking at the rather complicated flow diagram of the class, it would appear to have been originally domeless, then rebuilt to a domed GNR Class 5 somewhere between 1902 and 1919, as it was a LNER Class J4 at Grouping. The rebuild to Class J3 must have occurred somewhere between 1912 and 1929.

Hope I've got this right, but open to correction as always,

Peter

Thank you very much for taking the time to check this out for me Peter. It's exactly what I needed as I suspected that the build date was in the 1890s and the rebuild date later.

[61070]

For me our recent excursion into Grantham-inspired modelling continues to be fascinating. There is artistry and skill in successfully evoking character and period context, whether in the micro-scale (as with detail on individual locos, items of rolling stock, permanent way, structures or buildings), in the broad sweep (e.g. LNER4479‘s mile or so of East Coast Main Line), or in movement and operation etc. For example, the three locos of Roy’s (J6, C12, B1) show how an observant cleaner and fireman of the day ‘just knows’ how the paintwork on these different types of loco was kept, and how it aged between works repaints.

It’s a real treat to see work such as Clem’s and Roy’s, inspired as it is by their personal experiences of the railway at Grantham. I’ll send a printout of these last few pages to Peter Wilkinson, whose photo of 64202 encouraged Clem to start us off.

Picking up the discussion of the ‘A’, ‘B’ etc. engines. Combining information kindly contributed by several folk may I summarise briefly where I think that took us:

Some classes of loco were known by the crews and shed staff at Colwick and Grantham sheds (and others?) as A, B, C and E (no D) engines. They were all 0-6-0 tender locos of GNR and LNER types:
‘A’ engines: LNER and BR(E) J6, J5 at Grantham and Colwick; plus J39 at Grantham
‘B’ engines: LNER and BR(E) J3/J4/J7 with 170/175psi boilers at Grantham and Colwick
‘C’ engines: LNER J7 with 160psi boilers at Colwick
‘E’ engines: LNER and BR(E) J1, J2 at Colwick

Is this correct? Does anyone know whether these groups were (or had once been) ‘official’ in any way? Did the system extend to other classes or wheel arrangements?

Finally may I 'announce' that we’ve recently posted some more items on the Return to Grantham blog. Demonstrating the breadth of interest we want to cater for, they cover footplate work in the 1940s and infrastructure modelling:
http://returntograntham.wordpress.com/l ... e-bennett/
http://returntograntham.wordpress.com/r ... mm-part-1/

[clem]

For me our recent excursion into Grantham-inspired modelling continues to be fascinating. There is artistry and skill in successfully evoking character and period context, whether in the micro-scale (as with detail on individual locos, items of rolling stock, permanent way, structures or buildings), in the broad sweep (e.g. LNER4479‘s mile or so of East Coast Main Line), or in movement and operation etc. For example, the three locos of Roy’s (J6, C12, B1) show how an observant cleaner and fireman of the day ‘just knows’ how the paintwork on these different types of loco was kept, and how it aged between works repaints.

It’s a real treat to see work such as Clem’s and Roy’s, inspired as it is by their personal experiences of the railway at Grantham. I’ll send a printout of these last few pages to Peter Wilkinson, whose photo of 64202 encouraged Clem to start us off.

Picking up the discussion of the ‘A’, ‘B’ etc. engines. Combining information kindly contributed by several folk may I summarise briefly where I think that took us:

Some classes of loco were known by the crews and shed staff at Colwick and Grantham sheds (and others?) as A, B, C and E (no D) engines. They were all 0-6-0 tender locos of GNR and LNER types:
‘A’ engines: LNER and BR(E) J6, J5 at Grantham and Colwick; plus J39 at Grantham
‘B’ engines: LNER and BR(E) J3/J4/J7 with 170/175psi boilers at Grantham and Colwick
‘C’ engines: LNER J7 with 160psi boilers at Colwick
‘E’ engines: LNER and BR(E) J1, J2 at Colwick

Is this correct? Does anyone know whether these groups were (or had once been) ‘official’ in any way? Did the system extend to other classes or wheel arrangements?

Finally may I 'announce' that we’ve recently posted some more items on the Return to Grantham blog. Demonstrating the breadth of interest we want to cater for, they cover footplate work in the 1940s and infrastructure modelling:
http://returntograntham.wordpress.com/l ... e-bennett/
http://returntograntham.wordpress.com/r ... mm-part-1/

Yes they were official. In GN days these were displayed on a cast metal tablet on vacuum standpipe on the fron end. The full set of classifications were as follows:
A J5 j6
B J3, J4 (175lb) and J7 (175lb)
C J4 (160 lb), J7 (160 lb)
D Q1, Q2, Q3
D1 O1, O2
E J1, J2
E1 K1, K2
E2 K3
F J53, J54, J56, J57, N1, N2
H J50, J51, J52, J55, R1 (with 4'2" boiler)
L G2
M C12, G1
N R1 (4'8" boiler)
P A1
T D4, E1
W D1, D2, D3
Z C1, C2

Source: RCTS Green Books vol. 1
These really were the GN load classifications and continued to be official for a while after the grouping. But it's apparant that most enginemen at ex GN sheds carried on using these terms into BR days.

Clem

[ROY@34F]

The C12 is superb. I love the subtle weathering on the side tanks illustrating where water has overflowed. And the loco lamps - what make are they? They look so much less obtrusive than those ones which seem about a scale 3ft tall I see occasionally elsewhere.

I see nothing wrong with having this in the Grantham thread, especially if it sparks further discussion about the real thing.

You say that you were on the coach shunt, do you have any memories of the make-up of the trains that presumably you were shunting coaches for? There are some photos around which show the formation of Boston, Lincoln and Nottingham trains but not always as good as personal recollections.

The headlamps are only the normal Springside John , but they do seem to sit well on the C12 . I've noticed I must have removed the handles which helps the over size impression . There are 4 lamps on a shunting engine of course .
I've no idea of the formation of trains I'm afraid , sorry .
Thanks to John (1070) also for encouragement of models on his thread .
Roy.

[60129 GUY MANNERING]

With reference to Roy's comments on Grantham J6's, the information on the BR Database website shows the following locomotives based at Grantham during BR days.

64175 01/01/1948 until withdrawn on 01/06/1960.
64178 01/01/1948 until transferred to 36E Thrumpton on 19/07/1958 and was withdrawn
from there on 27/04/1960.
64181 08/01/1958 until withdrawn on 01/08/1959.
64186 17/02/1958 until transferred to 34D Hitchin on 14/02/1953.
64187 25/11/1950 until withdrawn on 02/01/1958.
64206 01/01/1948 until transferred to 34D Hitchin on 14/02/1953.
64227 01/01/1948 until withdrawn on 28/07/1958.
64237 01/01/1948 until transferred to 34D Hitchin on 14/02/1953.
64246 08/01/1958 until withdrawn on 06/06/1959.
64265 01/01/1948 until withdrawn on 07/07/1961.

I must confess I was very surprised to see 64178 absent from the list as I had a model of it when I lived in Stoke Mandeville and was building a model of Grantham in "OO".
However it is shown as Retford/Thumpton engine. I have corrected my post regarding this Locomotive above.
Another absentee is 64242 which apparently spent its life at Boston & Hornsey.
Of course if anyone knows better I will bow to there knowledge and inform the Webmaster of the above mentioned site.

Regards,Derek.

[clem]

With reference to Roy's comments on Grantham J6's, the information on the BR Database website shows the following locomotives based at Grantham during BR days.

64175 01/01/1948 until withdrawn on 01/06/1960.
64181 08/01/1958 until withdrawn on 01/08/1959.
64186 17/02/1958 until transferred to 34D Hitchin on 14/02/1953.
64187 25/11/1950 until withdrawn on 02/01/1958.
64206 01/01/1948 until transferred to 34D Hitchin on 14/02/1953.
64227 01/01/1948 until withdrawn on 28/07/1958.
64237 01/01/1948 until transferred to 34D Hitchin on 14/02/1953.
64246 08/01/1958 until withdrawn on 06/06/1959.
64265 01/01/1948 until withdrawn on 07/07/1961.

I must confess I was very surprised to see 64178 absent from the list as I had a model of it when I lived in Stoke Mandeville and was building a model of Grantham in "OO".
However it is shown as Retford/Thumpton engine.
Another absentee is 64242 which apparently spent its life at Boston & Hornsey.
Of course if anyone knows better I will bow to there knowledge and inform the Webmaster of the above mentioned site.

Regards,Derek.

Hi Derek,
I don't know where the BR Database gets its data from, but it is patently incomplete. The best source of information on allocations of LNER locomotives is almost certainly Yeadons Register, although there are one or two cases where I've found even that to be incorrect. Checking volume 37B, I found that 64178 was shedded at Grantham from new in October 1911 throughout its life until June 15th 1958 when it was transferred to Retford from where it was withdrawn on 27th April 1960.
64242 was never based at Grantham. I think Roy was mixing up 64242 with 64246 which was at Grantham from January 5th 1958 until it was condemned on June 6th 1959.
Also in your list, 64175 went to Colwick from new in October 1911 from where it went to Grantham on June 28th 1927 where it stayed until May 24th 1948 when it was transferred to Hitchin. It spent the remainder of its time there being withdrawn on June 1st 1960 at Stratford works after the it was decided not to repair. So it appears the BR database has probably missed the transfer from Grantham to Hitchin in 1948.
Clem

[61070]

Thank you for the information on the GN load classifications clem, and for quoting the source too. I don't have the RCTS green books - partly because I fear I may never be able to put them down and would be distracted from other jobs (like writing up material for our blog). However it does make me feel more than a little indebted when others, yourself in this case, kindly answer queries to which I could have found the answer myself were I equipped with these basic reference sources. At risk of repeating myself, as I'm sure I've said it before, people are very generous with the sharing of their time, knowledge and personal experiences on this thread - and on the Forum in general.

We've recently added one or two more Footplatemen's Photographs:
http://returntograntham.wordpress.com/l ... otographs/
The photos of the station buildings before many of them were demolished, particularly on the down side, are worth look too if you haven't seen them yet:
http://returntograntham.wordpress.com/s ... structure/

Comments/corrections/additional info are very welcome, as ever.

[strang steel]

With reference to Roy's comments on Grantham J6's, the information on the BR Database website shows the following locomotives based at Grantham during BR days.

64175 01/01/1948 until withdrawn on 01/06/1960.
64181 08/01/1958 until withdrawn on 01/08/1959.
64186 17/02/1958 until transferred to 34D Hitchin on 14/02/1953.
64187 25/11/1950 until withdrawn on 02/01/1958.
64206 01/01/1948 until transferred to 34D Hitchin on 14/02/1953.
64227 01/01/1948 until withdrawn on 28/07/1958.
64237 01/01/1948 until transferred to 34D Hitchin on 14/02/1953.
64246 08/01/1958 until withdrawn on 06/06/1959.
64265 01/01/1948 until withdrawn on 07/07/1961.

I must confess I was very surprised to see 64178 absent from the list as I had a model of it when I lived in Stoke Mandeville and was building a model of Grantham in "OO".
However it is shown as Retford/Thumpton engine.
Another absentee is 64242 which apparently spent its life at Boston & Hornsey.
Of course if anyone knows better I will bow to there knowledge and inform the Webmaster of the above mentioned site.

Regards,Derek.

Hi Derek,
I don't know where the BR Database gets its data from, but it is patently incomplete. The best source of information on allocations of LNER locomotives is almost certainly Yeadons Register, although there are one or two cases where I've found even that to be incorrect. Checking volume 37B, I found that 64178 was shedded at Grantham from new in October 1911 throughout its life until June 15th 1958 when it was transferred to Retford from where it was withdrawn on 27th April 1960.
64242 was never based at Grantham. I think Roy was mixing up 64242 with 64246 which was at Grantham from January 5th 1958 until it was condemned on June 6th 1959.
Also in your list, 64175 went to Colwick from new in October 1911 from where it went to Grantham on June 28th 1927 where it stayed until May 24th 1948 when it was transferred to Hitchin. It spent the remainder of its time there being withdrawn on June 1st 1960 at Stratford works after the it was decided not to repair. So it appears the BR database has probably missed the transfer from Grantham to Hitchin in 1948.
Clem

I think that is very unfair on the BR Database site.

I have searched for 64178 and it is listed as a Grantham engine until 1958 when transferred to Retford, the same as indicated above.

It is also listed under the entire Grantham allocation pages with the same details.

[ROY@34F]

Very interesting discussion on J6's ,with some surprises . It's a long time ago to rely on memory , but the details you chaps dig up is fascinating .
I have just attached my last resized photo which shows my attempt at the South Parade bridge at Grantham . Built askew to the railway and on a rising gradient of course . The engine is '47 Donovan , a Grantham engine at that time (I'm sure some of you will know it's exact time) , and in pristine condition , as it had not long been out of the plant , with speedo and smoke deflectors . It's a renumbered Hornby engine . I have given it 2 or 3 coats of Johnsons kleer , which I've read about , and , I think , is superior to varnish for this purpose . Of course the water tower should be south of the bridge and the south box is missing , plus other buildings . That's why I say my railway only "resembles" Grantham . The single bore up slow is modelled , though the A3 is obscuring it . The "aussie" is on a train of iron ore empties by the way , typically stopped on the up slow while crew relief arrives .
It looks a bit stormy south of the bridge . The light coloured sky is covering a breezeblock pillar supporting the roof purlins , so there's a sudden contrast in the photo .
The signal is built from kit stuff , with a lovely bouncing mechanism I copied from an article many years ago in the Model Railway Journal . Basically it's a horizontal pendulem which bounces on springy wire stops when tilted ; lovely mechanical stuff which my simple mind is easy with , rather than mysterious electronics and computer programming!
A3 no. '47 features in a story I've recounted on these pages of a trip to London & back , in this "as new" condition . A lot of my engines are named/numbered after precious memories of them.
Regards,Roy.

[LNER4479]

Another lovely photo Roy, love the angle on that one. Any chance of a track plan?

[60129 GUY MANNERING]

I feel very bad about this as under the class J6 allocations the information about 64178 is not 100% clear although I think I am far more to blame than the site BR Database. I thought that they were saying the Locomotive was at Grantham until 01/01/1948 and as such was never a Grantham engine during BR days. I do apologise for miss leading anyone and for causing any confusion.I really only listed J6 Locomotives at Grantham in BR days as that was as I understand it the time when Roy 34F was working as a Fireman there and at Kings Cross.
Kindest Regards,Derek.

[strang steel]

Another lovely photo Roy, love the angle on that one. Any chance of a track plan?

Yes, a great photo, although my eyes were drawn more to that wonderfully weathered WD. ( I am rather strange and prefer dirty locos to clean ones). Marvellous stuff.

[clem]

With reference to Roy's comments on Grantham J6's, the information on the BR Database website shows the following locomotives based at Grantham during BR days.

64175 01/01/1948 until withdrawn on 01/06/1960.
64181 08/01/1958 until withdrawn on 01/08/1959.
64186 17/02/1958 until transferred to 34D Hitchin on 14/02/1953.
64187 25/11/1950 until withdrawn on 02/01/1958.
64206 01/01/1948 until transferred to 34D Hitchin on 14/02/1953.
64227 01/01/1948 until withdrawn on 28/07/1958.
64237 01/01/1948 until transferred to 34D Hitchin on 14/02/1953.
64246 08/01/1958 until withdrawn on 06/06/1959.
64265 01/01/1948 until withdrawn on 07/07/1961.

I must confess I was very surprised to see 64178 absent from the list as I had a model of it when I lived in Stoke Mandeville and was building a model of Grantham in "OO".
However it is shown as Retford/Thumpton engine.
Another absentee is 64242 which apparently spent its life at Boston & Hornsey.
Of course if anyone knows better I will bow to there knowledge and inform the Webmaster of the above mentioned site.

Regards,Derek.

Hi Derek,
I don't know where the BR Database gets its data from, but it is patently incomplete. The best source of information on allocations of LNER locomotives is almost certainly Yeadons Register, although there are one or two cases where I've found even that to be incorrect. Checking volume 37B, I found that 64178 was shedded at Grantham from new in October 1911 throughout its life until June 15th 1958 when it was transferred to Retford from where it was withdrawn on 27th April 1960.
64242 was never based at Grantham. I think Roy was mixing up 64242 with 64246 which was at Grantham from January 5th 1958 until it was condemned on June 6th 1959.
Also in your list, 64175 went to Colwick from new in October 1911 from where it went to Grantham on June 28th 1927 where it stayed until May 24th 1948 when it was transferred to Hitchin. It spent the remainder of its time there being withdrawn on June 1st 1960 at Stratford works after the it was decided not to repair. So it appears the BR database has probably missed the transfer from Grantham to Hitchin in 1948.
Clem

I think that is very unfair on the BR Database site.

I have searched for 64178 and it is listed as a Grantham engine until 1958 when transferred to Retford, the same as indicated above.

It is also listed under the entire Grantham allocation pages with the same details.

I feel very bad about this as under the class J6 allocations the information about 64178 is not 100% clear although I think I am far more to blame than the site BR Database. I thought that they were saying the Locomotive was at Grantham until 01/01/1948 and as such was never a Grantham engine during BR days. I do apologise for miss leading anyone and for causing any confusion.I really only listed J6 Locomotives at Grantham in BR days as that was as I understand it the time when Roy 34F was working as a Fireman there and at Kings Cross.
Kindest Regards,Derek.

Hi Strang Steel, Derek and all,
regarding the BR database, there seems to be a misunderstanding here. I have no direct experience of it and as such was only going on the information supplied by Derek and, as I personally remember 64178 as a Grantham engine, I knew that if Derek had the information that it was never a Grantham engine in BR days, it was incorrect from my experience - backed up by Yeadons, ABC locoshed books etc. Thus by implication, the database must be wrong. But now that Derek has suggested that his interpretation may have been incorrect, this changes the situation. I have nothing against the BR database, itself. Just that, in this case, it appeared to be wrong and I therefore wanted to relate which sources I personally found generally reliable. But, as someone who teaches guitar, I spend a lot of time correcting sometimes dreadfully incorrect guitar music picked up from the internet, so I have to own up to having a bit of a predisposition against information found on the 'net and tend to be very sceptical until an on-line source's integrity has been proved.

So, bottom line, I have no axe to grind against the BR database, nor any intention of being unkind to it, my only experience of it being indirect. I only post on here if I think it can be helpful to others in the same way that other peoples posts are often very helpful and inspiring to me.

I hope that clarifies the issue.

Best Wishes

Clem

[clem]

Sorry also meant to add this in my last post: Lovely photo, Roy - full of atmosphere.

Regards

Clem