Returning to Grantham

[clem]

Sorry CLEM , I refered to you as PHILL in my previous post.
Roy.

Hi Roy,
Don't worry, I've been called many worse things than Phill! Yes I've actually got a couple of the London Road kits myself but I finished off the whitemetal ones first as I'd previously built one. I have built a Connoisseur J69 which I found went together very well. Looking forward to tackling the J6 kits in a year or two.

Thanks for relating your experiences with the J6s. Reminiscences like yours really bring to life this great interest of ours. How I envy your experience of firing one to Netherfield! I saw many J6s as a child and probably my biggest association with them was being pulled from Kimberley to Nottingham behind them on many occasions in the period 1955-1959. At that period, before the L1s came in large numbers, they were almost single handedly running the passenger service on the line, along with the A5s and occasionally a J39, K2 or J11. The overriding impression from the memory of those days is how the Colwick drivers really opened up on leaving Kimberley and as kids we were really excited at the acceleration up to and through Watnall tunnel, and then down the bank past Nuthall Sidings at speed only to slow down very suddenly for Basford North (Basford and Bulwell in LNER days). Then after leaving Basford, another quick acceleration down through the 'Rat-Hole' to take a run at the gradient up to Bagthorpe Junction. They seemed to be ideal engines for the Derby-Nottingham-Grantham services and were certainly liked much more that the more modern L1s. When the Ivatt (LMS) designed class 4 2-6-0s came on the line (post 1959) after being released from the M&GN due to that line's closure, the enginemen took to them in a very similar way to the old J6s.

BTW, on the subject of resizing your photo of your J6, I take the existing copy and do a 'save as' with a different name - I usually tag '_reduced' on the end of the existing file name- it then gives me an option, via a slider, of how big the saved file will be, and I can set it accordingly. Having said that, I am using a Mac - it may be different using a PC. Anyway, I would love to see a photo of of your J6 if you do get a resized version. As you say, it's nice to work with brass, giving you scale width footplating and cab sheeting and looking much finer that the white metal castings. In order to mitigate this, I try to thin the edges of the castings and that does help a bit.

Best Wishes

Clem

[clem]

Very nice models. Very nice models, indeed.

There was something about the J6s that made them look attractive, therefore I can understand your love of them. Sadly, for me, by the time I was old enough for some serious trainspotting, nearly all of them had been withdrawn.

Sorry John, didn't see your comment earlier. Thanks for the kind comments.

I know what you mean when you talk about missing out on the J6s. - In my case, it was the J5s. I was very young when the J5s disappeared and I only remember them for the fact they had taller chimneys (although some had shorter chimneys taken from J6s in the 1930s). The J5s were a saturated precursor to the J6s (although 2 were later superheated) and I remember seeing them near Nuthall sidings where my brother used to take me on a regular basis to watch the trains when I was 3 and 4. From Nuthall Sidings, there was a mineral branch up to NCB sidings at Watnall and it was always a J5 that worked the branch. Being ten years older than me, he knew about locomotive classes and so I picked it from him, at a very early age. They sounded very different to the J6s - much more wheezy, rather like the preserved J52 sounds if you've ever heard it in steam. But they'd all gone before I was 5 years old. The J5s, like the J6s were designed in a manner that was very pleasing to the eye. I hope to scratch build one when I get the chance.

Clem

[strang steel]

I have a soft spot for all the GNR/LNER J class tender locos, although their history is a bit complex. I have a kit built J3 somewhere, although I have not seen it for ages. It was a Ks kit I think, and is probably in the loft somewhere gathering spiders. I may have seen one in reality, although I would have been an infant if I had because they had all gone by 1955. However, at one stage I thought that I would stretch imagination a bit and pretend the last one survive at Boston for a couple more years, and visited my layout occasionally.

I know I am a bit of an optimist, but my parents went most places by train when I was small, so I can only speculate on what I may have witnessed in stations and sidings. I remember being told to look out of the window and count telegraph poles, no computer games back then, and the trackwork always fascinated me as a child. So, I like to think that I might have seen a few vintage locos at the same time.

I like to think that the occasional J3 may have made it to Grantham, although I can't remember seeing a photo of one there, but a pick up goods from either Boston or New England might have seen one arrive.

[jwealleans]

I like to think that the occasional J3 may have made it to Grantham

I've just been looking into that with a view to renumbering mine. Prewar Grantham had a few J3s and J4s although never very many. The two candidates for 1938, my main interest, both had the Stirling cabs, so were no good to me.

There's a picture in Dick Hardy's latest book of a J3 in Grantham loco in 1940-ish and i think RHN is in the cab. That one also had the Stirling cab - they must have looked very antiquated even then. I think the LRM kit covers that variation.

[61070]

By sheer coincidence I was talking to one of Grantham’s most ‘senior’ retired footplatemen last week about some of the oldest locos still around during his time there as a cleaner and fireman, late 1940-1947. Something we discussed may be of interest re. J3s at Grantham.

In an account of wartime conditions he’d written this sentence:
Engines had been called upon to perform feats of haulage far beyond the specification for which they were designed, from the little 0-6-0 ‘B’ engines right through to the great A4s, A3/A1s and V2s of Sir Nigel Gresley.

I asked him what was meant by a ‘B’ engine (it isn’t a term I’m familiar with - my knowledge of GNR loco history is rudimentary compared with that of many others on here). He said the older drivers referred to the more ancient, saturated ex-GNR 0-6-0s as ‘B’ engines. They called the more modern, superheated ex-GNR 0-6-0 loco designs (e.g. J6) ‘A’ engines. I haven't come across this terminology before, so I wonder if it had any official status, or it was something only used by the drivers?

By way of an example of how these old engines were kept going during the war, he recalled seeing a ‘B’ engine at Grantham which had a diamond-shaped builder’s plate on the centre splasher which, he said, indicated that it had been rebuilt in 1898. Its running number was 4040 and it was used for the shed shunt duty.

On returning home I found this photo of No.4040 (at New England):
http://www.britishsteam.com/lner/0-6-0/J03-4040.php

It has the diamond plate and is said to be an LNER J3. The caption writer, however, has the build date as 1898 (by Dübs & Co., which would explain the shape of the plate). Perhaps someone with access to the reliable record could confirm for me whether 1898 was the year of No.4040's construction or of its rebuilding? I’ve had a look at the relevant pages of the loco history section of this website but, as it says there, it’s a complex tale of rebuildings and changes of class designation. I don't think there's enough information in the (necessarily) summarised account of the classes for me to work out the history of this engine.

Whatever the year of build/rebuild turns out to be, it appears that No.4040 was seen at Grantham shed between late 1940 and 1947.

[strang steel]

Thanks for that eyewitness evidence, John. I omitted to add that in my nostalgic ramblings I was thinking of post-war when I mentioned the J3s.

On the J6 subject, there are a few photos here http://www.flickr.com/photos/34800790@N04/8600231337/ for anyone who has not already seen them.

[Donovan]

In my first ever posting on this site, before Christmas, I said that I was going to try and find my last Combined Volume---success---Summer 1959 found complete with false name just in case I was caught bunking a shed!!!
What further memories it has bought back.Apparently I cabbed nine A4's and eighteen O2's The O2's would have been mainly Grantham engines on what we local spotters called the dead lines alongside the main shed.The A4's included the four or five shedded at Grantham for a few months mentioned earlier in this thread.The one A4 that I can clearly remember not cabbing on shed was 60009 Union of South Africa.This headed the early evening 'Donny' local into platform 1 on one never to be forgotten occasion and the driver invited me on board.To a young spotter on his own this was heaven.
The A4 was not the first live Pacific that I cabbed however---Mr Parker, a friend of my Granddad,was a top Grantham driver.He lived in the Victoria St area and knew this blond haired kid walking on the footpath alongside the angle sufficiently well enough to offer him a ride on his trusty steed A1 60128 Bongrace.I know where I got on--not far from the two mainline pilots.Don't ask me where I got off.I think I just floated in a dream over the fence on Springfield Road.
The most memorable engine ride though was one summer evening when all the spotters from the Nottingham and Leicester areas had gone home (sorry guys).B1 61033 Dibatag came in on a Nottingham train. The driver taking pity on a lonely local not only gave me a trip round the angle but also under the coaling stage and finally back onto the carriages before the return trip--amazing.
When I joined this topic I did promise to fill in a few gaps on visiting engines.With regards B16's these were regularly at the head of an early evening up mixed freight.The other regulars on this turn being York based V2's or B1's.
I only ever saw one Brittania at Grantham and that was 70041 Sir John Moore which was on regular workings for a week or so in the late fifties.
Other rarities were B2's and B17's.I suspect that most of those seen at Grantham were ex-works.The only one I can clearly remember was 61640 Somerleyton Hall but as my cabbed list includes Wynyard Park,The Essex Regiment and Leicester City these all must have been on the dead line at one time or another.
One final thought for now.In connection with engines visiting Grantham don't forget football excursions.Grantham Town(The Gingerbreads)were in the Midland League and at that time playing the reserve teams from Bradford,Hull,Doncaster,York as well as Nottingham before crowds approaching 2000.The only stranger on shed that I can recall was an Ivatt ex LMS class 2, 2-6-0 from Goole on a Sunday after we played Goole.Coincidence or not? I don't know.

[ROY@34F]

I asked him what was meant by a ‘B’ engine (it isn’t a term I’m familiar with - my knowledge of GNR loco history is rudimentary compared with that of many others on here). He said the older drivers referred to the more ancient, saturated ex-GNR 0-6-0s as ‘B’ engines. They called the more modern, superheated ex-GNR 0-6-0 loco designs (e.g. J6) ‘A’ engines. I haven't come across this terminology before, so I wonder if it had any official status, or it was something only used by the drivers?
(Quote of 61070)


I remember the term "A engine" ,but it just referred to the J39's I thought John.However ,it must have included other superheated classes it seems.
Regards,Roy.

[52D]

St Johnstoun will probably know better than me but I think the NBR did something similar with the J36s calling them class S or class T depending on wether they were superheated or saturated.

[strang steel]

Thanks Donovan, for the excellent memories.

I think there will be many here who will appreciate that kind of detail, especially from a modelling perspective.

I used to know quite a few boys in steam days, who claimed they had cabbed all manner of pacifics and V2s on mainline services, but I treated their claims with a pinch of salt, but your recollections seem quite sensible, and the sort of 'dream come true' experiences that do happen from time to time.

It is pure genius to add a false name and address to your ABC in case you were caught, why did I never think of that? I was often caught, or shouted at from a distance, but fortunately I rarely had to give my address, except for one strange occasion when I was on a train and 'found' by the guard standing in the vestibule looking out the door window of a 1st class carriage while only having a second class ticket. My plea that I was not taking up a first class seat only seemed to make matters worse.

[jwealleans]

I had a look at Dick Hardy's book again this morning. The photo - in 1941 - is of 4040 which he says was then a Newark engine. He then recounts a story of taking a similar engine to relieve a train during the war and he also uses the expressions 'A' and 'B' engine.

[clem]

Hi - Yes Colwick men referred to the J6s as 'A' engines too. I think it referred to the GN power classification rather than whether an engine was superheated or not. J5s were also 'A's whilst J3s, J4s and J7s were 'B's if they had 170/175 lb. boiler pressure. The J3s, J4s and J7s had smaller boilers and different wheelbases to the J1, J2, J5 and J6 classes. The J7s with the lower 160 lb boiler pressure were 'C's whilst the J1s and J2s were 'E's.

Clem

[PGBerrie]

Perhaps someone with access to the reliable record could confirm for me whether 1898 was the year of No.4040's construction or of its rebuilding?

The same picture is in the Green Bible with the caption: 1031 Series, Extended cab roof, shorter chimney. Ross pop safety valves.

The 1031 series was the final series of GNR Class J6 built by Dübs&Co in 1896. 1040/4040's Works No. was 3379, if I've added right. Looking at the rather complicated flow diagram of the class, it would appear to have been originally domeless, then rebuilt to a domed GNR Class 5 somewhere between 1902 and 1919, as it was a LNER Class J4 at Grouping. The rebuild to Class J3 must have occurred somewhere between 1912 and 1929.

Hope I've got this right, but open to correction as always,

Peter

[ROY@34F]

Re.Clem'sJ6 a few posts back;and thanks to my good friend John's re-sizing...here is my effort .Built some years ago,a connoiseur kit,Sharman wheels, axles equalised,(front one pivots on central wire)Portescap on rear axle using modified hornguide bushes to locate in gearbox sides.Just enough room for this in 00 gauge.The motor is vertical,with the gearbox extending just above rail level.The boiler is crammed with lead where possible giving very good grip/hauling power.I think the steel wheels help in this respect.
The fireman bobs about a bit,as he's stuck to the fall plate!
Hope you like it gents.
Roy.

[Iron Duke]

Evening Roy,

That's a nice model you have there.
Is the backdrop Grantham?

ID