Horse boxes

[robertcwp]

The first report that I can find of the SC prefix is from May 1951 Railway Observer. This also reported that an edict had been issued that coaching stock numbers were to be placed on the right-hand end of the coach side, as viewed from the outside. In early BR days, numbers had been on the left, although the piece also notes that the experimental LNER chocolate and cream stock (1948 experimental liveries) had numbers placed centrally (which I think also applied to the plum & milk LNER vehicles too, and possibly some others).

This is from a 1959 SR Carriage Working book but appears to be a reproduction of a communication to all regions, possibly dating from the 1951 changes to the numbering system:

[1H was 2E]

I've also been trawling through old ROs but it seems I had been looking too early. However, I did find an interesting note relevant to the LMR, but which might have applied elsewhere, The LMS had a structured coach numbering system at nationalisation. CCTs were numbered 34000 up (for pre-group ones - standard ones started around 35000). The RO reported that, when BR standard BTKs were first allocated to the LM with numbers in the M34000 series there was a clash with CCTs with the same prefix and number (because, at that time, suffices were not used) and the CCTs were renumbered - an example was given, to M66831. I wonder whether the ER/NER had any similar clashes.
Neatly (but a bit convoluted) returning to the thread subject; I recall, living on the Euston line, that Sc prefices were very rare to the point of non-existence. However, on my first Scottish bash (£5/10/0 freedom ticket for a week, if you claimed you were all related) I was surprised that Sc prefix passenger vehicles were not universal in Scotland, and LM and E prefix ones were to be found even in the far North and North West. Furthermore, for NPCCS in Scotland, the Sc prefix seemed to be very rare; and I don't understand why - I don't recall ever seeing an Sc prefix HB. I think the NPCCS situation (that the prefices were only E, M, S, W) applied to the NE region, too. Just wished I'd written more down instead of relying on memory.
Interesting comments from Andy W; in the days before coaching stock was on TOPS it must have been "interesting" to track down individual coaches. I worked on the FRS section in a Trains Office; wagons were even more elusive and the HoS managed to get a lot of Sundays going 'on safari'.
Two small anecdotes from those days; the man from ER who routinely robustly phoned my colleagues on PRS with a list of E prefix coaches he'd seen in use on the LM and demanding them back pronto (I suggested spend lunch at the Cross for a quid pro quo); and the colleague who used his Continental free pasess to see the Turkish 8Fs. At the back of Izmir shed there was an SR 20t brake van, still in SR livery and presumably exported at the time of the 8Fs. He phoned his contact in the RSL and, thanks for that, we had it as still in stock.

[65447]

The first report that I can find of the SC prefix is from May 1951 Railway Observer. This also reported that an edict had been issued that coaching stock numbers were to be placed on the right-hand end of the coach side, as viewed from the outside.

The 'Thompson' Dia. 338 non-vestibuled (non-gangwayed) CL Composite Lavatory carriages were numbered with SC prefixes from period 5 in 1947, commencing with SC 88337.

Perversely, the first of the block of Dia. 339 Thirds with the SC prefix (11/1950 onwards) were sent to Stratford!

I do not know about those earlier 'allegedly evolved from the LNER but built by BR' horse boxes, but the BR design ones only had M, W, E & S prefixes according to Kichenside.

[robertcwp]

The 'Thompson' Dia. 338 non-vestibuled (non-gangwayed) CL Composite Lavatory carriages were numbered with SC prefixes from period 5 in 1947, commencing with SC 88337.

Thanks, that seems very early for SC prefix as 1947 was prior to Nationalisation.

[D2100]

At least some of the Earlestown HBs were M prefix; I photographed one at Rugby 1969.

Coming to this late but I'm fascinated that pre-BR designs of horsebox were around and in use this late. Is the photo publishable at all?

The 1972 RCTS coaching stock book doesnt show any BR standard HBs, but does include E2388E, listed as 1952-built at York under lot 1344, and also two SCVs: W722W; 1939 Swindon, lot 1605, and E765W; 1953 Stratford, lot 1377 (ER lot). If anyone can tie those details in to what's already been discussed, I shall be most appreciative; I assume the GW design vans are some variant of Beetle.

[1H was 2E]

Browsing through various sources, once again I seem to have found more questions than answers.
The GW Journal (81) had an article about GW horseboxes, and mentioned 3 HBs which were dual braked and had 2 instead of 3 stalls; one was branded "The Hon. The Earl of Mount Edgcombe, Newmarket station. Return to Newmarket, LNER", later altered to "Capt. C. Boyd Rochfort, Newmarket and the other two "Lord Glanely, Newmarket. Return to Newmarket Station (NE)". This was in the period before WW2. The author of the article was unable to explain how the LNER accepted this; as an aside, one of Lord Glanely's horses was Grand Parade...
The RO recorded the arrival of the first W allocated LNER-ish designed Earlestown built HB at Newton Abbot (for the races) as being met with enthusiasm because, unlike the GW ones, it had a toilet for the groom (though, the contributor churlishly added, not for the horse). Certainly the LMS and probably the LNER ones all had this amenity; perhaps shows GW management's attitude towards workers.
Of course, the HBs hanging about at stations in the Shires (and Rugby) was not in connection with racing but with hunting.

[Bill Bedford]

Out of 30 Diagram 5 horse boxes built no less than 23 were leased to racing owners. I can list all the owners if any one is interested.

[65447]

Out of 30 Diagram 5 horse boxes built no less than 23 were leased to racing owners. I can list all the owners if any one is interested.

Yes please, Bill.

[jwealleans]

When did Private Owner horseboxes disappear from the railways?

[60117 Bois Roussel]

Out of 30 Diagram 5 horse boxes built no less than 23 were leased to racing owners. I can list all the owners if any one is interested.

Yes please, Bill.

Here's the info taken from the Diagram. Please note that the named individuals were all racehorse trainers, except for the Earl of Derby who was a racehorse owner as well. I hope this info is legible for the version I'm seeing is properly formatted, but the public version is all shunted together!

Diagram 5 built 1938.

No. Branding Return to

2336 - Newmarket
2337 - Newmarket
2338 - Newmarket
2339 Reg Day Newmarket
2340 B Jarvis Newmarket
2341 GB Barling Newmarket
2342 JL Jarvis Newmarket
2343 JL Jarvis Newmarket
2344 Frank Butters Newmarket
2345 JL Jarvis Newmarket
2346 Frank Butters Newmarket
2347 Frank Butters Newmarket
2348 Capt C Boyd Rochfort Newmarket
2349 Frank Butters Newmarket
2350 Hon G Lambton Newmarket
2351 CP Kirk Kennett
2352 Capt C Boyd Rochfort Newmarket
2353 George R Rigby Newmarket
2354 Lord George Dundas Newmarket
2355 - Newmarket
2356 - Leyburn
2357 JG Thompson Acklington
2358 - Malton
2359 Egerton House Newmarket
2360 - Newmarket
2361 Capt P Whitaker Newmarket
2362 The Earl of Derby Newmarket
2363 The Earl of Derby Newmarket
2364 RJ Colling Newmarket
2365 Major WV Beatty Newmarket

When did Private Owner horseboxes disappear from the railways?

I'm not sure that there ever was such a thing. If you're referring to the branded ones above, I have no date but suspect that the leasing may have been terminated during WW2.

[James Brodie]

Sirs,
When I was on the push and pull trains--Middlesbrough Guisborough we had occasion once to pick up a horsebox from the dock at Nunthorpe station and we ran loco-dbc-dbc horsebox.
On arrival at Guis' we left the horsebox outside the station platform then set the whole train into the siding. Ran the horsebox by gravity into the platform then brought the train out and coupled the engine to the horsebox so the return formation was dbc-dbc-loco-hb. The same day we were photoed by the gazette as Guis' station was a hundred years old and there is a photo of the train with horsebox on the rear.(Feb 1954).
Jim Brodie.

[jwealleans]

I'm not sure that there ever was such a thing.

The article I read was in the Great Eastern Society Journal. I've lent my CD to someone but I shall supply a reference when it is returned.

[52D]

Well Mr Bedford/65447/Bois Roussel you've certainly roused my interest with one of the Horseboxes being marked return to Acklington, that's a good excuse to have one now for my D20 to haul to Kelso. Thanks.

[65447]

When did Private Owner horseboxes disappear from the railways?

I'm not sure that there ever was such a thing. If you're referring to the branded ones above, I have no date but suspect that the leasing may have been terminated during WW2.

During 1911 BRCW delivered to Frank Bibby Esqre (sic) of Newmarket a horse box of a design similar to that already supplied by that company to the GER. I have a copy of the works photograph.

I doubt very much that this was the only PO horse box.

[60117 Bois Roussel]

I have seen this picture myself in the BRCW archive at B'ham. It's perfectly possible that the 1911 horse box (and others like it in GER days) were fully owned by a trainer; I too would like to know (and have asked somebody closer to it look into it).

As regards the much later, LNER-built D5 for which I offered the brandings above, these were definitely not privately owned and the allocation of many has variously been described as "hired" or "leased" to trainers, who thus had a personal standage. I suspect the LNER decided that it wanted full operating control of AVB vehicles running at high speed with express passenger trains.

There's a near-parallel with glass-lined milk tanks where the railway companies were responsible for the chassis; but the tanks, with their non-railway requirements around hygiene, the dairies.

Coal traffic in the NE may also be cited: a case where the railway tried hard to do away with PO coal trucks whose reliability was inferior and cause of hold-ups. The problem of "cripples" was widespread.