Coaches in BR livery, when?

[Chris Grouse]

How quickly did BR repaint the teak Gresley coaches into blood and custard/maroon? I wanted to run some in teak livery but not sure how long they stayed like that.
Also did any GCR non corridor/suburban stock survive into BR days?

[boeing757]

Hi Chris, can I just add to your original query please?
I want to run a teak finish Gresley coach with some BR crimson/cream coaches portraying c1950.
Were the teak coaches renumbered before repaint and if so in what script, LNER or BR?
Thanks
B

[Chris Grouse]

That's pretty much what I want to do. I'm building some LNER and GCR coach kits, the LNER coach sides are pre painted in teak effect, and I'm reluctant to cover it....

[DaveF]

I'm afraid I can't give you a detailed answer but if you go to my flickr sets page you will find a lot of sets (about 175). In the first half of the page you will see a lot of sets with thumbnails in black and white, these contain images mainly taken between about 1947 and 1954. In all there are around a thousand black and white photos, plus over eight thousand later colour ones.

You'll have to do some hunting through them but I have dated the photos to the nearest year (they were taken by my father), they show various liveries and how they changed.

You may be surprised at how old some coaches were !

The link is: http://www.flickr.com/photos/davidwf2009/sets

I hope this is some use.

David

[65447]

First repainting into the new BR crimson & cream or plain crimson liveries would be after the official decision on the liveries during 1949, and then following the change to maroon livery during 1956. However there is evidence of carriages still in the varnished teak livery in the late 1950s, and it is possible that some never received a BR livery before withdrawal c1960. The pre-Grouping stock was most likely finished in the carriage brown livery (wartime economy measure) and did not, with certain exceptions, ever receive any BR livery.

As to renumbering that was a matter of chance, timing and works. If the carriage happened to be in or near a works that was keen to apply the changes and it was convenient to apply them then it would happen, otherwise it might not. Some carriages carried their LNER numbers with the regional prefix in the same LNER serif style, some retained the serif number but with Gill Sans prefix, and some were completely renumbered.

The altered position of the numbers only applied for a short period after nationalisation and so only to those carriages newly-built or going through works just at the time had them applied to the left-hand end.

Having said all of the above, the usual rule of the prestige stock being treated first generally applied, and then worked its way down.

So no hard and fast rules; as ever the advice to check photographs applies, and so does modeller's licence.

[1H was 2E]

Just a little bit to add. Only yesterday the local railway club had a show of BTF films presented by Alan Willmot, a veteran ex-employee. One of the films was called "Train Time" (I think) and was the first BTF film on general release, filmed in the summer of 1952 and released that winter.
The significance is that it showed a number of East Coast expresses. It is in b&w, but some coaches are two-tone,(obviously red & cream) and some are one colour (too early for overall maroon, must be teak/ersatz teak).
What's remarkable is the high proportion of teak finish 4 years after Nationalisation - perhaps 2 to one if favour of teak over BR.
Worth a view. The very wooden morning conference is also interesting....
I did look at trains in the fifties but not old enough to make sense of detail. However, I do recollect that, on a school trip to London (West Coast, sadly) in early 1960. I made for the red and cream coach because that livery was, by then, rare; cannot unfortunately recollect what SP date was applied to a coach ex-works, (i.e. period between works visits) but I think Wolverton must have repainted at about 3 year intervals to have done most of the fleet between 1956 and early '60. So I am surprised that LNER stock hadn't been repainted at all by 1960, but obviously don't know. Round this way, locals and branch line (push-pull) stock also got painted pretty frequently and I don't recollect any bright red unlined coaches by 1960.

[boeing757]

Thank you for the prompt and considered replies, what a pity that contemporary photographers seem to have focussed on the motive power rather than the whole train.
Thank you again Chris for tolerating my freeloading on your thread.

B

[boeing757]

Hello again,

Continuing my ramblings, can anyone point me at a photo of a Gresley coach in teak which has been renumbered by BR after 1948. My interest is getting the style of lettering and position of it right. Either a book reference or an image (copyright permiting) either on here or by PM would be an early Christmas present.

Happy Christmas to one and all.

Bob

[1H was 2E]

I did scan through the "Coaching Stock" section of the RO and, although the information relies upon the whim of someone to report, the last reference to a teak/brown coach I could find was in 1953, when a BG was reported; this seem to confirm my suggestion that, as coaching stock was repainted quite frequently (at least once every 5 years, I think) there was no chance of teak surviving after about 1953.
However, catching up with all the magazines that I couldn't afford to buy when they came out I bought today 'Steam Days' for December 1995 (at an emporium not far from Quorn....) Within, there's an article about Newton Abbot and this includes a photo, taken in the Summer of 1958, of a Kingswear to Swansea train reproduced in colour. The coaches are all very clean and all are of LNER origin. Seven are in carmine and cream, two are in maroon (supporting the date quoted); but the second vehicle, described as Gresley GNR, is clearly brown - but not varnished teak.
I remember that paint did seem to peel off teak quite badly and perhaps the brown was some sort of wood stain rather than paint to overcome that problem - though that's only a suggestion.

[manna]

G'Day Gents

In the movie 'Inn of the sixth Happiness' there is in the opening few minutes, a shot of an arriving N7 and crimson Gresley suburbans, then later 10-15 minutes there is a good shot of Gresley mainline stock still in teak, this was shot at Liverpool St in around 1956/7, there are a couple of good shots of the interior of the coach/compartment, inc the seats.

manna

[billdonald]

A very good and often overlooked source of livery information in the early BR period is the 1955 film The Ladykillers. Aside from being a very funny film in its own right, there are plenty of shots around the Kings Cross area all in vivid colour. Another useful colour film is The 39 Steps from a couple of years later. Although well into the maroon era, tricks like freeze frame and screen captures are a breeze these days to examine a scene in detail.

Bill Donald
Dublin, Ireland.

[swhite01]

In the current, March, Backtrack magazine there is a centre spread covering Grantham. One of the colour pictures shows a stabled C12 tank behind it is a teak carriage... It has the coach no in the early BR position I.e. On the lefthand side and from my view shows E6xxxx in standard BR lettering of yellow but faded and what appears to be a newly applied, brighter, E suffix. The article states the pictures were taken in 1956,

Steve

[boeing757]

After a long search I have not turned up a single pic of a Dia 41 or 42 Brk 3rd in teak with BR numbering prior to it's repaint to carmine/cream, so I have gone for a standard LNER finish on the basis that it probably remained in LNER livery for some time after nationalisation.
Widening the subject, I am building a Dia120 pigeon van. I have one excellent pic from Peter Tatlow's Vol 3 NPCS of E70212 in painted livery (carmine or maroon ?) with a black and yellow line at waist level. Pic undated so cannot be sure. Were carmine stock lined out? What other colour schemes were these vans finished in in BR days, and were they kept in teak during the war or given a coat of brown paint?
Pointers to any photos of these in BR days would be appreciated.
Thanks for reading this far
Bob

[boeing757]

Well I'm amazed that nobody on this forum can answer my simple enquiry. Does the information not exist or are we just unwilling to share?
B

[65447]

The Dia. 120 Pigeon Van in Tatlow's is in BR Crimson (never ever Carmine) - the quick way of differentiating is that the earlier livery had a black above gold (straw) waist lining whereas the later Maroon livery had the black line between outer lines of gold (straw). These vans were finished in varnished teak until BR liveries of Crimson and then Maroon were applied. Unlike the Thompson 6-wheel steel-panelled vans I do not believe that any received BR Rail Blue but would be pleased for chapter and verse of any that did whilst in revenue service.

As to other elements of the Dia. 120 the ends, underframe and ironwork and wheels would have been black, with roof grey.