Crash at New Southgate - 1948

[Blink Bonny]

Ay up!

Sometimes it is justified.

In the early '90s there was a fatality on the line near Mirfield when two kids on a scrambler bike decided to see if the could go faster than the train. They couldn't.

I knew both members of the crew involved at the time. The driver knew in his own mind that he'd done all he could and was most miffed to be given a weeks' holiday with full pay and no detriment to either his disciplinary record or holiday allowance.

The guard, riding in the front cab against all Regulations had a major nervous breakdown and, so far as I know, never worked again.

[Bryan]

Nowadays(Or at least it was up to 3 years ago at least)
It is still the practice to relieve anybody involved in an incident even if they are not at fault.
However they are normally tested for Drugs and Alcohol as a matter of course on site.

I have seen PICOPS, Engineering Supervisors and COSSes all being tested after incidents even when it was patently obvious that they were not at fault but that they were involved in some way.

The problem being to find replacements at 04.00 on a Sunday morning so that the job can continue when the possession is due up at 9.

[Iron Duke]

I first read the Bill Hoole book (Engine Extraordinary by P.W.B. Semmens) about 30 years ago.
It is an excellent read and I would recommend it to anyone interested in railways.

Having now come by a copy I am in the process of reading it again and have come to the chapter covering this accident.

In the first paragraph leading up to the description of the accident the author talks about working down to Grantham on the 11.15 p.m train and after a break, returning on the "99 Up", the 7.50 p.m from Edinburgh that Bill had rammed when a WD hit his A1.
Can anyone explain where the term "99 Up" comes from?

Attached is a photograph from the book showing 60508.
Further on in the book reference is made to the cab numbers:- The rubbing action as the locomotive slid along on it's side exposed the lower incorrect number, and it is of interest that the original Ian Allan ABC, published in 1949 showed the number of Duke of Rothesay as 507.

[Mickey]

All very interesting.

[giner]

I see that newspapers were well capable of typos back then, too.

[jwealleans]

I think you're dead right, Micky. In that story about Bill Hoole catching the Talisman, isn't the Scotch Goods referenced as 266 Down?

[silverfox]

Perhaps i might be treading old ground, but when we used to hang around Wood Green Station from 58-63 ( hence only one O level!!!)
There was a chap who 'befriended' some of the older guys and gave them the train numbers.
Thats how we started doing 'movements' trather thn just writing numbers
IIRC the 1.00pm Heart of Midlothian was 64, the CBE 66 and the 1.10 ( or was it 20 ) Leeds 68
Also i thing th up Leeds ,arriving about 12.50 ws 105.
60111 used to work that for weeks, or so it seemed
We all had notbooks with all the pacifics numbered and when we saw one just wrote down the train rep no. against it. That was we got to know the possiblilties of what would or cvoul be on certain trains

A few of the highlights was 86 ex works on the 1.20, a day in the school holidays when in the space of an hour 3 haymarket locos came down ,none on the Lizzie and tha day i regret even now, when 68 went out with 266. We used to run like buggery from the school ( Trinity Grammar) if anyone knows the area at bell to catch it. That day ...we didnt.

[silverfox]

Just to add to the above

I saw all but 35 of the 202 and never ventured north of Hatfield, and spent during schooldays early am, left for school after Deltic had gone through Entered Blue and left orange ( frozen Jubblies!!) and pm got the 233 home around 5-5.30 and every lunchdepending on time of year, and sat on the station doing our homework. Remember copping 527 from the top of the bus in silouette and glow from the fire. And most of the summer holidays.
Ones that eluded me were 35/7/41/3/57/68/79/84/7/9/90/4/5/6/7/8/100/1/16/52/9/60/1/2/507/9/10/19/28/9/31/4/5/6/7

[1H was 2E]

and tha day i regret even now, when 68 went out with 266. We used to run like buggery from the school ( Trinity Grammar) if anyone knows the area at bell to catch it. That day ...we didnt.

It seems to be a common phenomenon with us ageing 'spotters.

50 years or so later we still have regrets about the ones we just missed, and that memory is SO much clearer than all the ones we did see. We'll never get over it, although I've been told I should!

[manna]

G'Day Gents

G'Day silverfox, Wood Green was also my 'home turf' in 58-64, spend a fair amount of time hanging around the station at weekends and holidays, one of my favorite spots was on the public footbridge at the south end of the station, were you by any chance one of the 'kids' that used to stand on there bikes to look over the wooden fence that lined the bridge !!!

manna

[gusdaq]

http://www.friern-barnet.com/picture/number7057.asp

60508

[W.Ascough]

I always understood that the initial derailment in the tunnel was due to a broken rail - W.Ascough

[Mickey]

I just read the official accident report into this accident and it is actually a technically but interesting accident to read about which appears to have been mainly caused by a slightly higher than normal P.Way joint over a 'wet bed' in the Up fast line inside Barnet tunnel or that's how I read it?. The pacific loco involved in the accident it's leading bogie rode the slightly higher P.Way joint which then set up a 'roll' with the loco that became worse until the loco 'hit' the Cemetery 'turn in' connection from the Up fast to Up slow line several hundred yards outside the tunnel mouth and with the loco still travelling at some speed causing the loco to slowly turn over onto it's right-hand side at the same time!. Also the express trains speed was estimated to be running at about 60mph down from Potters Bar on the falling 1-200 gradient from Hawkshead to Wood Green (worked out by the signal box train register passing times at each signal box after the accident) and according to the inspecting officer the speed of the train possibly contributed to the accident but the inspecting officer stated that wasn't driver Bill Hoole's fault in as far as speedometers on LNER locos had been removed at the start of WW2 so Bill was estimating the trains speed and didn't actually know for certain how fast the train was running?.

Apparently it appears to have been normal practice by the P.Way ganger at this location to raise the P.Way joint slightly higher over a 'wet bed' where the track bed floor was 'soft' so that the trains weight would push the 'joint down' to the level when the loco and vehicle wheels rode across the P.Way joint.

From a memory of 50+ years ago the ride through Barnet tunnel on the Up & Down fast lines at speed was always a bit of a lively one in parts.

[Mickey]

The above crash happened at 6:00am outside Cemetery s/box with the A2/1 pacific locomotive after emerging from Barnet tunnel 'rolling' from side to side and then hitting and damaging the facing points from the Up fast to Up slow line connection just beyond Cemetery s/box and breaking the P.Way up underneath the locos wheels while slowly rolling over onto it's right-hand side with it's train coaches becoming derailed in the process on the broken Up fast to Up slow facing connection as well.

The scene inside Cemetery s/box can be imagined with the signalman possibly at the frame watching this disaster playing out in front of his eyes!. The signalman no doubt then showed how a good signalman reacted at a time like this by throwing all his signals to danger on all four running lines and sending 6 bells Obstruction Danger also on all four running lines and pegging all the three remaining block indicators to 'Train on Line' to New Southgate & Oakleigh Park s/boxes and then going straight on the control phone and reporting what had just occurred and requesting the ambulance, fire & police services ASAP after which he would have then spoken to both the signalmen in New Southgate & Oakleigh Park s/boxes and told them what had just happened. He may have also sent out a message to all s/boxes on the Kings Cross to Hitchin s/n telegraph circuit informing all signalmen along the line what had just happened.

Below Cemetery signal box shown in 1968 20 years after the crash on the Up side of the running line looking towards New Southgate- http://friern-barnet.com.s3.amazonaws.com/571.jpg

[Mickey]

Did Cemetery s/box have detonator placer levers or stirrup worked detonator placers in the Up & Down fast lines or no detonator placers at all?. If it didn't the signalman could have put down x3 detonators 20 yards apart on the exit to the Up slow line the other three running lines the Down fast and Down slow lines would have been protected by New Southgate's fixed signals being at danger and driver Bill Hoole of the overturned loco walked back towards New Southgate where it is stated in the official accident report that he did that and protected those lines with detonator protection. The Up fast line had the derailed train standing on it back to Cemetery s/box so the Up fast line was protected by fixed signals being at danger at Cemetery & Oakleigh Park s/boxes. I presume the guard of the derailed train probably did walk back to Oakleigh Park to put detonator protection down on both the Up fast & Up slow lines.

Further more to the above aftermath of the crash no doubt the guard of the express would have made his way to Cemetery s/box (possibly right outside where his guards brake vehicle was standing?) and 'gone up' into the box probably to ask the signalman about further 'protection arrangements' and carrying his own issued detonators (detonators explosives filled with gun powder that are placed and secured to the top of the railhead to attract and warn the train crew) and was possibly told by the signalman to walk back through Barnet tunnel along the Up fast line to Oakleigh Park station and to fix x3 detonators 20 yards apart on the Up fast and Up slow lines near to Oakleigh Park s/box, the Cemetery signalman no doubt informed the Oakleigh Park signalman what he told the guard about putting down detonator protection at Oakleigh Park and no doubt the signalman also informed the guard that Control had been advised and the emergency services had been requested ASAP.

The Control as well as arranging for the emergency services to attend the crash scene would have contacted various Operations managers and arranging for the Breakdown vans to attend the crash site and diverting express trains via the Hertford loop and probably a dozen other things as well.