Horse box livery

[Cutter]

Does anyone know the color used for horseboxes? I have seen photographs online in various shades of brown or red, and a website that states that they were a shade of brown referred to as 'chocolate' that was darker than bauxite/oxide. Since these boxes were built to run with passenger stock I am wondering if the shade was closer to varnished teak?

Any help much appreciated!

[Bill Bedford]

There is a theory that the paint used was wagon bauxite, but because NPCS was varnished they tended to look darker than wagons in service. LNER wagon bauxite was alway browner than the equivalent LMS or BR colour.

[jwealleans]

Colour is a very subjective thing and Bill's post is just one of many ideas on the subject. Dan Pinnock says he remembers Stratford using a colour very close to Humbrol 133, which is very red. Photos can be equally confusing - I have two pictures of the same GE coach, taken on successive days and the rendered colours are nothing like each other.

For what it's worth as a guide, I usually go back to this photograph on Paul Bartlett's site. My reasoning is that when this was restored in 1977 there were still a fair number of people about who remembered what they looked like before the war. Like wagon grey, however, different works and even different foremen might have their own ideas and you can come up with all sorts of variations - and that's before you get into the effects of weathering on the paint. Welcome to the minefield.

Incidentally, I usually use Humbrol 62 or 186 with a spot of black, which is fairly close to the above colour but cheaper than the specialist paint suppliers. If you mix it up each time you paint a vehicle then you'll get a bit of variety between them which is (IMHO) more realistic.

[2512silverfox]

Like all other NPCS other than those in varnished teak, horseboxes were painted in the ersatz teak colour the same as coach solebars and wheel centres. The old Humbrol HR143(?) was spot on but Precision do a good match too. Remember however that there were two distinct shades used by Doncaster and Darlington (York) in the 20s and 30s but since the paints were mixed by hand in galvanised dustbins, variations were bound to appear. Plus of course the amount of varnish coats and the effects of weathering and lack of cleaning. In the late 30s with the introduction of the long lived extra long CCT mentioned by Jonathan, the GA drawing noted that in future a standard 'teak' colour gloss finishing paint would be used, and one must assume from that time the random mixing ceased.

The Monkwearmouth CCT which Jonathan mentions was restored under my direction and under consultation with the NRM using a scaled version of the Precision match. I have not seen it for years but it may well have faded a bit.

Nick

[mick b]

I have done mine in Precsion Teak including ends. This has beeen debated before and i have not read anything to convince me of any other colour (so far) .

[Cutter]

Thank you all very much. I think I know where to go with this now. Having worked with historic buildings and published an article about how ships were painted historically, I am well aware of the issues around "authentic" colour and paint! And since I am working on four horse boxes I can go for variety.