Hatfield No.3 s/box

[hq1hitchin]

:

Any comments on why LBSC 319 should be on the turntable at Hatfield would be much appreciated.

Adge

Amazing photo, thank you. Not sure when these LBSCR engines were built but what made Hatfield rather special on the GN was the fact that Lord Salisbury lived in Hatfield House and was Prime Minister three times, the last time being until July 1902. There was even a royal waiting room at Hatfield, a rarity on any station. Given that the train was the fastest mode of transport in those days, perhaps a special had been run from 'south of the river'?

[Mickey]

Hatfield No.3 is just seen.

[52D]

There is another possibility, Tweedmouth played host to 3 southern Interlopers whilst the Railway museum in York (pre NRM) was being rufurbished i wonder if this loco has come south for the same reason.

[giner]

http://www.historypassage.org.uk

Wow! That website's a dandy, adge. We can all have a great game of pinpointing locations on there.

[Mickey]

I am just doing some minor research on Hatfield no.3 s/box.

The s/box was of Great Northern Railway construction built mainly of wood and painted all over in a 'off white' colour and was situated on the Down side of the running lines approximately 50 yards off the north end of Hatfield station and primarily signalled trains on the Down lines although at one time the box controlled trains running onto & off of both the st Albans & Luton single line branch lines as well as entrance to & from Hatfield loco.

1.The box opened circa late 1890s although i haven't seen a definite date?.

2.The box contained a 80 lever frame facing the running lines although i am not certain of what type of lever frame this was?. (80 levers was a fair size lever frame when you consider that Welwyn Garden City had a 85 lever frame as the 'main lever frame' not including the smaller but separate 'Luton lever frame' as well).

3.The box telegraph code was JV .--- ---.

4.How many telegraph instruments did the box have one or two or did it have a 'telegraph cabinet' with several different s/n telegraph circuits worked on the one telegraph instrument like the same arrangement at Welwyn Garden City?.

5.The entrance to the box always fascinated me?. The box staircase was located on the left-hand side of the box as you approached the box at rail level and then climbed up the side of the box leading onto a verandah at the back of the box which was covered over by the slooping roof of the box. The actual door leading into the box was located at the back of the box on the verandah all quite unique really.

6.The box mainly worked with Hatfield no.1 to the south and Welwyn Garden City to the north although there was some working with Hatfield no.2 when trains were crossing from the st Albans & Luton line branch lines to the Up lines. (see Stevie's excellent post on the method of working between these two s/boxes).

7.Sadly there doesn't appear to be many photographs of Hatfield no.3 for some reason?, i have only ever seen about two photographs showing the box both taken from a distance.

8.Even though Hatfield no.3 stood almost but not quite directly opposite Hatfield no.2 across the main running lines both s/boxes looked completely different Hatfield no.2 had a brick built base and only the upper parts of the box were built of wood as opposed to the all wooden construction of Hatfield no.3.

9.The box closed in December 1969 after 'rationalisation' of the track and signalling which was formerly under Hatfield no.3s area of control in the last few years leading up to closure with the remaining signals & points being transferred into Hatfield no.2 which basically by late 1969 just consisted of the Down fast & Down slow lines and a Down run/round siding and a shunting neck.

[thesignalman]

G'day Micky - I can help with some of your questions:

1.The box opened circa late 1890s although i haven't seen a definite date?.

1890, I think, as Hatfield North (No2 didn't exist then), becoming "No3" in 1896.

2.The box contained a 80 lever frame facing the running lines although i am not certain of what type of lever frame this was?. (80 levers was a fair size lever frame when you consider that Welwyn Garden City had a 85 lever frame as the 'main lever frame' not including the smaller but separate 'Luton lever frame' as well).

Then original frame was 60 levers, but the box was extended for the new frame of 85 levers in 1896. It was a Railway Signal Company frame, as provided at No2 too (spot the huge catch-handles!):

Photo: R Flanagan, collection of John Hinson

4.How many telegraph instruments did the box have one or two or did it have a 'telegraph cabinet' with several different s/n telegraph circuits worked on the one telegraph instrument like the same arrangement at Welwyn Garden City?.

It had what I have always known as a concentrator which I think is the same as you call a telegraph cabinet?:

Photo: R Flanagan, collection of John Hinson

7.Sadly there doesn't appear to be many photographs of Hatfield no.3 for some reason?, i have only ever seen about two photographs showing the box both taken from a distance.

I'm afraid I don't have any outside views, as you can see it was dark when the pictures were taken.

John

[StevieG]

A couple of titbits straight from memory :

Micky,
For code JV, try .--- ...- instead .
I recall the entry into Wood Green 1 was a bit similar to how you describe that to No.3. Stairs led up behind the box, parallel with the back wall, from a northerly direction (near the south end of the Down side loading dock), to a minimal square landing right outside the door roughly halfway along the back wall.

John,
I don't know whether No.3 ever had 85 levers, but it was total 80 in 1968, and I think looked like that was the maximum length at that end - I think I recall that No.3 was one of those GN boxes where the external size of the place belied the size of frame squeezed inside.
[80 was logically-placed for its function as this was for a mechanical gong fairly high on the (south?) wall of a small-ish brick building near the north end of the Down Fast/"Western Platform" platform island : - 80 was therefore the only green lever that I saw (but I did not operate) in contemporary service (though do I remember Fins.Park 5 still having a gong listed on its diagram without any other trace of its existence?).
The H3 gong rang once when the lever was pulled, so had to be put back and pulled again for any second or each subsequent 'clang' required; and for this reason i'm pretty sure there was a thin-ish metal ring always over the main and catch handles, keeping the latter always against the former so that the catch handle didn't need to be grasped when working this lever.]

Looks like Rod's photo of the telegraph instrumentation shows unusual sounders on the sender, looking similar to those that were on Hatfield No.1's sender which I thought had been unique in my experience, being very different to most, in material, construction, and tone.

[thesignalman]

I don't know whether No.3 ever had 85 levers, but it was total 80 in 1968, and I think looked like that was the maximum length at that end - I think I recall that No.3 was one of those GN boxes where the external size of the place belied the size of frame squeezed inside.

With apologies, 80 it certainly was - I was mixing it up with No2 I think.

The apparent squeezing-in of a frame in a GN box almost always indicates a new frame at some stage (as indeed was the case here) as they were normally built with plenty of room to spare.

Looks like Rod's photo of the telegraph instrumentation shows unusual sounders on the sender, looking similar to those that were on Hatfield No.1's sender which I thought had been unique in my experience, being very different to most, in material, construction, and tone.

I don't remember seeing any of these in use but they certainly weren't a rarity as I have a bag in the garage with a handful of each type. All I need are some instruments to fit them to!

Incidentally, I never visited No3 but it always held an interest for me as in schooldays there was a blueprint of the box diagram pinned up in the woodworking workshop. Nobody, including the woodwork master, had a clue what it was and it had zero relevance to carpentry. And my school was nowhere near Hatfield!

John

[Mickey]

Thanks John & Stevie for the additional information about Hatfield no.3 and the pictures are great John from your collection thanks again.

I read in a Middleton Press book that Hatfield no.3 opened about 1896 like you already said John and closed on November 30th 1969 and not December 1969 like i already posted.

Yes John the s/n telegraph cabinet (as i called it) was indeed called a concentrator i couldn't remember what they were called and the telegraph code for Hatfield no.3 was as posted JV although as Stevie did point out i did write the morse code letters out wrongly sorry.

As well as Hatfield no.3 telegraph code JV Hatfield no.2 telegraph code was HH .... .... and Hatfield no.1 was HD .... -.. but i don't know what the original Hatfield no.1 that stood on the Down side of the running lines until 1920 before closing telegraph code was?.

I always liked Hatfield no.3 it was a nice looking s/box and very pleasing on the eye to look at i always thought and along with several other boxes between Kings Cross & Hitchin it was always one of my favourite G.N.R. s/boxes.

[Mickey]

Hatfield no.3 photographed sometime in the early 1960s prior to track and signalling simplification also note the staircase to the left leading up to the veranda at the rear of the box.

[R. pike]

Look at all those bars. Thank heavens for track circuits..

[Mickey]

Look at all those bars. Thank heavens for track circuits..

Yes there are a number of treadle bars aren't there.

I believe i heard about the green lever that worked the gong before Stevie i may have even seen the lever if it was lever no.80 located at the very end of the lever frame by the open window. I always remember doing some train spotting on Hatfield station one sunny and warm Sunday afternoon possibly during the summer of 1969 several months before the box closed and trying to hopefully attract the signalman's attention to see if he would call across to me on the station platform from the open end window to come up?. The signalman that Sunday afternoon i foundout later on turned out to be Keith Aldridge who unfortunately passed away at a young age in his 40s i believe during the late 1980s.

[Mickey]

A slight signalling mystery regarding Hatfield No.3s Down slow line starting signal?.

The Down slow line starting signal towards Welwyn Garden City situated approximately 300-350 yards beyond Hatfield No.3 box along the Down slow line was a semaphore signal mounted on a straight medium size concrete post and lasted until Hatfield No.3 closed in late November 1969, my question is was this signal re-positioned after the Wrestlers bridge collapsed in February 1966 or was it always there?.

In a photograph of the collapsed Wrestlers bridge in February 1966 it shows two semaphore signals both mounted on separate medium size concrete posts standing side by side that were worked by Hatfield No.3 one signal was the Down fast line starting signal and the other I presume was the Down slow line starting signal so if that is a correct assumption was either the Down slow line starting signal re-positioned after the Wrestlers bridge had collapsed and situated further along the Down slow line towards Welwyn Garden City because the semaphore signal that was shown in the photograph wasn't there after the Wrestlers bridge had collapsed and the running lines were re-opened again shortly afterwards but if that was the case did they just use the same concrete signal post shown in the photograph at the collapsed Wrestlers bridge and re-position it further along the Down slow line towards Welwyn Garden City (instead of using a newer metal tubular signal post?) or was there an 'advance starting signal' on the Down slow line the one that was mounted on the concrete signal post beyond the Wrestlers bridge that lasted until Hatfield No.3 closed in late November 1969?.

Mickey

***Several words have been changed from the original text***

[Hatfield Shed]

... what made Hatfield rather special on the GN was the fact that Lord Salisbury lived in Hatfield House and was Prime Minister three times, the last time being until July 1902. There was even a royal waiting room at Hatfield, a rarity on any station. Given that the train was the fastest mode of transport in those days...?

The GNR kept a loco in steam - usually a single - to zip the PM to and from Town on a special when Parliament was in session. By repute the service time achieved all those years ago has not yet been equalled, despite the investment in electrification.

Steam worked Hatfield has numerous other attractions BTW. Full range of ECML traffic speeding past, interesting assymetry of the staggered platform layout built in several stages at varying heights, the great point ladders either end, country end loco shed of the inner suburban service, and main line connection for three branches, a busy goods yard with several rail served businesses about it, and all those handsome signal boxes. It's sad and bland nowadays by comparison.

[StevieG]

A slight signalling mystery regarding Hatfield No.3s Down slow line starting signal?.

The Down slow line starting signal towards Welwyn Garden City situated approximately 300-350 yards beyond Hatfield No.3 box along the Down slow line was a semaphore signal mounted on a straight medium size concrete post and lasted until Hatfield No.3 closed in late November 1969, my question is was this signal re-positioned after the Wrestlers bridge collapsed in February 1966 or was it always there?.

In a photograph of the collapsed Wrestlers bridge in February 1966 it shows two semaphore signals both mounted on separate medium size concrete posts standing side by side that were worked by Hatfield No.3 one signal was the Down fast line starting signal and the other I presume was the Down slow line starting signal so if that is a correct assumption was either the Down slow line starting signal re-positioned after the Wrestlers bridge had collapsed and situated further along the Down slow line towards Welwyn Garden City because the semaphore signal that was shown in the photograph wasn't there after the Wrestlers bridge had collapsed and the running lines were re-opened again shortly afterwards but if that was the case did they just use the same concrete signal post shown in the photograph at the collapsed Wrestlers bridge and re-position it further along the Down slow line towards Welwyn Garden City (instead of using a newer metal tubular signal post?) or was there an 'advance starting signal' on the Down slow line the one that was mounted on the concrete signal post beyond the Wrestlers bridge that lasted until Hatfield No.3 closed in late November 1969?.

Mickey

***Several words have been changed from the original text***

I'm guessing that the two signals you saw side by side in the photo Mickey, were actually the Down Fast and Luton single Line Down Starters, which were parallel with each other [and although it was possible to stop on the Down Fast, clear of all points, in order to shunt back over to the Up side, that DF signal (No.25 I think) being where it was, didn't leave much room in which to stand at the Starter prior to shunting.]

But all diagrams that I've seen, including from before the bridge-fall, show the Down Slow Starter (52 IIRC) some 200-300-ish yards further north, which gave a good distance in which to stand on that line when wanting to shunt back across to the Up side, and AFAIR, both those DF and DS Starters were retained when No.3 Box was abolished, and so became worked by No.2 Box.