Scotch Goods

[61070]

I'll stick my neck out and say that this is likely to be the C15.40 ex K/X Class C. King's Cross engine and men on a lodging turn to York, returning next day on 4E01? Inverkeithing -King's Cross Class C.

Stembok - many thanks for that, I'll add it to my information on that picture as 'thought to be'. From the direction of the shadows I reckon the photo was taken 19:00 - 19:30 ish. That's kind of substantiated because, leading up to the shot of 60862, 1N24, the down Yorkshire Pullman (17:25 from King's Cross I believe), appears in a previous photo, then there's a shot of a passenger train calling at the down main line platform, then 60862.

[52A]

Stembok's mention of Driver Hoole prompted me to dig out Gerry Fiennes book "I tried to run a railway". He gives a graphic description of Bill Hoole taking 20 minutes to cover the 27 miles between Hitchin and Huntingdon, 75 mph average with the 266 Down, before he was stopped with a hot box on one of the wagons!

Not surprising, any driver with sense would have expected that.

[manna]

G'Day Gents
His fireman use to carry dust pan and brush for cleaning out the tender? LOL
manna

[stembok]

52A: That's very true. Bill Hoole did tend to overdo it at times. The speeds those four wheel vans must have been doing doesn't bear thinking about. The train, 266 down, had been delayed 23 minutes leaving King's Cross due to a fault on the loco and Bill realised that he would lose his path if he didn't 'step on it', with the 'West Ridng' , 'Talisman' and 'Tees-Tyne Pullman' all behind him. After dropping the wagon with the hot box at Peterborough he again went at it hammer and tongs and was checked by the preceding 8 coach 4.00pm 'Talisman' from King's Cross, with 5 minutes delay at Retford!

[Jingling Geordie]

Watto all,
I've nothing to add but would like to say what a fascinating read this thread is. Loved the pic of the V2.

421

[Mike J]

Page 32 of the book 'The power of the V2s' has a great picture of Green Arrow passing Marshmoor on the Scotch Goods.
The caption reads 'A very fine picture of no 4771 Green Arrow passing Marshmoor at the head of the down 3.40pm 'Scotch Goods', which ran from King's Cross to Glasgow. From 1936 to 1939 the locomotive was a regular performer on this important train and, as can be seen, was kept in spotless condition.'
There are some more photos of V2s perportedly on the Scotch Goods. Are they confusing this train with the later departure, or is it the Scotch Goods?
I've always thought that the Scotch Goods was the 3.40pm train pre-war.

[Mike J]

Regarding the photo mentioned above, the same one appears in The Gresley Observer no 155. The caption reads ''The pioneer V2, No 4771 Green Arrow, heads the 3.35pm King's Cross, Leith Walk and Glasgow No 1 Breaked Freight at Marshmoor, circa 1938.'
So, is it the Scotch Goods? Does it really matter? Perhaps someone could shed more light on this photo?

By the way, the head of the train consists of conflats again. This seems to be quite a common occurrence and would not happen by accident as the train was marshalled. Any ideas why? Was it to do with off loading at Niddrie?

[James Brodie]

Sirs, Not a very good driving technique running over hard then loosing time in detaching hotboxes plus extra expense for repairs and on and on and ad nauseaum. I wonder what the real maximum "allowed" speed was for the wagons. I think a form one would have been very appropriate certainly in times past he would have collected a few Browney points.
James, potential Thompson (they were the best) steam engine cleaner, failed platform white line painter-I could only use a left handed brush !

[jwealleans]

Mike, I think your first post has lost something in translation - I read it as 'the Scotch Goods was the 15:40, not the 15:40'.

I have also noted the marshalling of conflats at the head of the consist and asked the question of the LNER Society. I'm awaiting any responses in the next newsletter (unless the former editor, who frequents this parish, has any advance information). I postulated that it was either a result of the marshalling arrangements at KX or a requirement for shunting/breaking down at Niddrie.

[sandwhich]

The so called scotch goods ran well into the 1970s but by then terminated at York, when the freightliner terminal at KX goods yard was laid out the first train was a liner service to Aberdeen that departed around 1900 and that became a lodge turn at Newcastle, the scotch goods was worked in its last days by Grantham crews, in fact it became one of their last main line jobs before they became just a few turns to Skegness and Nottingham before eventual closure. In the early 60s when diesel traction was taking over I remember on one occasion a Deltic on this afternoon goods working.

[Mickey]

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[Mike J]

Mike, I think your first post has lost something in translation - I read it as 'the Scotch Goods was the 15:40, not the 15:40'.

I have also noted the marshalling of conflats at the head of the consist and asked the question of the LNER Society. I'm awaiting any responses in the next newsletter (unless the former editor, who frequents this parish, has any advance information). I postulated that it was either a result of the marshalling arrangements at KX or a requirement for shunting/breaking down at Niddrie.

Sorry for the confusion.
After the photo was identified as the Scotch Goods, in The Power of the V2s and it was stated as the 3.40pm down, this would confirm that at this time (1936/38) the Scotch Goods was booked to leave KX at 3.40.
The photo is then reproduced in the Gresley Observer as the 3.35 down No. 1 goods, with no mention of the Scotch Goods. I know that Scotch Goods was never an official title, so even though the departure times are 5 minutes apart, is this the same train? I doubt that they would have run two express goods to the same destination five minutes apart, unless it was duplicated due to capacity.
Thanks for your offer to share the information regarding the positioning of the conflats in the train. I hope that you receive a satisfactory reply, and look forward to the answer.
Best wishes,
Mike

[strang steel]

The so called scotch goods ran well into the 1970s but by then terminated at York, when the freightliner terminal at KX goods yard was laid out the first train was a liner service to Aberdeen that departed around 1900 and that became a lodge turn at Newcastle, the scotch goods was worked in its last days by Grantham crews, in fact it became one of their last main line jobs before they became just a few turns to Skegness and Nottingham before eventual closure. In the early 60s when diesel traction was taking over I remember on one occasion a Deltic on this afternoon goods working.

I think Deltics were seen on this duty a number of times. There is one on the Michael Marsden "Darlington" video, and although the loco front is not that clear, if you step through the clip frame by frame, the headcode certainly looks to be 4S04.

I saw D9019 heading that working through Grantham on April 10th 1967 and, according to my notes, the train consisted of 53 vans, which was a decent tail load. Unfortunately, I had often left for my tea before that particular train appeared at Grantham or Barkston, and if it was a EE type 4 with discs, it was an educated guess as to which working it was, so my records are sparse.

I did see a Peak on it once, on 25th October 1968 4S04 had class 46 D185 in charge. At that time it was the 1430 Kings Cross goods to Millerhill.

[StevieG]

I'm sure that, with revisions to freight train classifications around 1969-70-ish, the train changed from a Class 4 (as in 4S04) to a Class 6. I've a feeling it became 6S64? in case anyone has a photo/s of a train loco displaying that headcode.

[Mickey]

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