G.N.R. s/box numbering policy?

[Mickey]

Lately i have become interested in how the G.N.R. went about numbering there signal boxes and how it came about?. There doesn't appear to be any mention in the book on Great Northern Railway signalling by Michael Vanns (published in 1999) on how the company decided on numbering there s/boxes but there is a definite pattern to it.

1.Hornsey no.1 signalled the DOWN lines only south end of down platforms.
2.Hornsey no.2 signalled the UP lines only north end of up platforms.
3.Hornsey no.3 signalled the DOWN lines only north end of down platforms.

4.Wood Green no.1 signalled the DOWN lines only south of down lines platforms.
5.Wood Green UP box no.2 signalled the UP lines only north of up platforms.
6.Wood Green no.3 signalled the DOWN lines only north end of down lines platforms.
7.Wood Green UP box no.4 signalled the UP lines only south end of up platforms.

8.New Southgate no.1 signalled the DOWN lines only south end of down lines platforms.
9.New Southgate no.2 signalled the UP lines only north of up lines platforms situated underneath the high bridge.
10.New Southgate no.3 signalled the DOWN lines only north of down lines platforms situated underneath the high bridge.
11.New Southgate no.4 signalled the UP lines only south end of up lines platform.

12.Hatfield no.1 signalled the DOWN lines only south of down lines platforms. s/box closed in December 1920.
13.Hatfield no.2 signalled the UP lines only north of up lines platform.
14.Hatfield no.3 signalled the DOWN lines only north of down lines platforms.
15.Hatfield no.4 signalled the UP lines only south end of up lines platform. s/box adopted the former Hatfield no.1 name in December 1920.

The Finsbury Park s/boxes are the odd ones out i presume thats because there was 7 of them spread out around the Highbury/Clarence yard/Finsbury Park station area.

A.Finsbury Park no.1 signalled UP & DOWN Cannonbury lines south of Finsbury Park.
B.Ashburton Grove signalled UP & DOWN Goods lines south of Finsbury Park.
C.Finsbury Park no.2 signalled mainly the DOWN Goods & Carriage lines south of Finsbury Park.
D.Finsbury Park no.3 signalled the DOWN lines south end of down lines platforms.
E.Finsbury Park no.4 signalled the UP lines only south end of up lines platforms.
F.Finsbury Park no.5 signalled the DOWN lines only north of down lines platforms.
G.Finsbury Park no.6 signalled the UP lines only north end of up lines platforms.
H.Finsbury Park no.7 signalled the UP & DOWN Highgate branch lines north of Finsbury Park station.

I believe i have the correct numbering for the New Southgate s/boxes but i am not 100% certain but i am going on how the s/boxes at Wood Green & Hatfield were numbered?. Also i was slightly surprised to learn that there was a Hornsey no.3 s/box that signalled the DOWN lines only north of Hornsey down lines platforms was there also a Hornsey no.4 s/box that signalled the UP lines only at the south end of Hornsey station i can't find any mention of one so far although i doubt that there was?.

[StevieG]

It's always seemed to me, as you've probably worked out Micky, that it was odd Nos. for Down boxes and even for Up, with numbers ascending in the direction that their trains ran; so Drivers typically saw (Down) No.1, then No.3; and (Ups), No.2, then No.4.

(New) Barnet was another example, where pre-1920s, there were Nos. 1 (Down) and 2 (Up), south of the station [No.2 was seemingly 'south' rather than 'north' because the later New Barnet North had then been No.3 (still all lines though; in fact, at the time {excluding 'branches' as at Fins.Park & Wood Green}, this was the first box heading north out of King's Cross that controlled all lines : I know of no No.4 box ever existing here) ].

With Finsbury Park, the same methodology looks to have applied for the main line boxes, but using 3, 4, 5, 6, as the Nos. 1 & 2 were already accounted for 'down below' before the station area.

Don't know how, when, or why this system was adopted though.

Never heard of any Hornsey 4 ever existing.

[john coffin]

Not being a signalling man, I am also confused by this.
However, it seems to me likely that the odd numbers were used on one side only to allow drivers and others to understand it and know they were on the correct route, except on diversions.
We all initially get confused about which direction is UP and which DOWN and from which point it becomes so when we enter the hobby.

It seems likely that had the GN been designed to work from Doncaster to London rather than the other way round, then the signals would have been numbered in reverse.

As for the number of boxes, remember that boxes were added some time after the railway was built to take account of the traffic flow, and when new lines were added, they would have created an analogy in the numbering, in terms of where they were placed along the line between older boxes. Often easier to use a totally off the wall number than interrupt the original mainline pattern.

Paul

[Mickey]

Thanks for your contributions Stevie & John, it's probably going a bit over the top to say that i have for many years since the late 1960s almost found something rather 'mystical' about why these s/boxes were numbered the way they were?.

It is noticeable that amongst the Finsbury Park boxes no.4 (signalled the UP lines only) is in the same position at the south end of Finsbury Park up lines station platforms as was-

1.Wood Green UP box no.4 signalled the UP lines only at the south end of Wood Green station up lines platforms.
2.New Southgate no.4 signalled the UP lines only at the south end of New Southgate station up lines platforms. Later just became New Southgate.
3.Hatfield no.4 signalled the UP lines only at the south end of Hatfield station up lines splatforms. Later changed to Hatfield no.1.

Yes Stevie the New Barnet example of numbering the 3-s/boxes is kind of 'half right' no.1 box being on the DOWN lines & no.2 box being on the UP lines but no.3 box is the 'odd one out' at the north end of the station but i presume that it signalled ALL the running lines through New Barnet north of the station so in a kind of way it was correct??.

If Wood Green tunnel box (signalled the DOWN lines only) had been numbered rather then named i presume that it would have been numbered Wood Green no.5?.

Yes i agree with you Stevie i don't believe that there was ever a Hornsey no.4 box because i've never heard of a no.4 box before but after hearing of Hornsey no.3 at the north end of Hornsey station that signalled the DOWN lines only it just made me wonder if there had ever been a no.4 box pre-1895 that signalled the UP lines only at the south end of Hornsey station platforms at onetime?. In the accident report for the accident that took place between Wood Green up box no.4 and Hornsey no.2 in 1899 there is no mention of a Hornsey no.4 box the next box to the south of Hornsey no.2 was Harringay UP line box.

It was never clear to me why Ashburton Grove box was given a 'name' rather then being numbered Finsbury Park no.2 the next box along from Finsbury Park no.1?. I presume that Ashburton Grove was built after Finsbury Park no.1 (1874) and after Finsbury Park no.2 and to have given Ashburton Grove the number Finsbury Park no.2 would have meant that several of the other Finsbury Park boxes would have had to have been re-numbered for example Finsbury Park no.2 would have become Finsbury Park no.3, Finsbury Park no.3 would have become Finsbury Park no.5, Finsbury Park no.5 would have become Finsbury Park no.7 and Finsbury Park no.7 would have become Finsbury Park no.8?. I can see 'now' why the G.N.R. decided to give Ashburton Grove a name rather then a number and leave the other boxes with there original numbers.

I believe i have answered my own question?.

[StevieG]

Yes, thank you John also.

I deliberately did not refer back too far as I know much less about those developing times (reference to Peter Kay's series of articles on the GN in London, published initially in British Railways Illustrated, then later in the London Railway Record, would be very informative about that).

I do know that "Wood Green Up Box No.2" (outside Bounds Green carriage sidings/shed) was said, and certainly looked, to be one of the oldest (the oldest?) to survive until the resignalling which saw the end of mechanical signalling, and was reckoned to have once been "Wood Green North".

" .... It is noticeable that amongst the Finsbury Park boxes no.4 (signalled the UP lines only) is in the same position at the south end of Finsbury Park up lines station platforms .... " .

Thanks for mentioning that Micky, as I now realise that when I said :-

" .... it was odd Nos. for Down boxes and even for Up, with numbers ascending in the direction that their trains ran; so Drivers typically saw (Down) No.1, then No.3; and (Ups), No.2, then No.4. .... With Finsbury Park, the same methodology looks to have applied for the main line boxes, but using 3, 4, 5, 6, as the Nos. 1 & 2 were already accounted for 'down below' before the station area. .... " -

- I was wrong in respect of Finsbury Park up side, as there, drivers of Up trains first came to No.6, then No.4: Thus, at FP only, the numbering did not follow my suggested theory of the system: Well it was rather late when I was writting that .

" .... Yes Stevie the New Barnet example .... no.3 box is the 'odd one out' at the north end of the station but i presume that it signalled ALL the running lines through New Barnet north of the station ... "

Yes, I said so in my earlier post.

" .... the later New Barnet North had then been No.3 (still all lines though; in fact, at the time {excluding 'branches' as at Fins.Park & Wood Green}, this was the first box heading north out of King's Cross that controlled all lines .... ".

[Mickey]

I do know that "Wood Green Up Box No.2" (outside Bounds Green carriage sidings/shed) was said, and certainly looked, to be one of the oldest (the oldest?) to survive until the resignalling which saw the end of mechanical signalling, and was reckoned to have once been "Wood Green North".

Interesting Stevie i never knew that Wood Green Up box no.2 may have been Wood Green north in an earlier time. I use to like Wood Green Up box no.2 with that BIG signal gantry near the box, i did manage to clime the staircase once and stand in the doorway chatting to the signalman for several minutes also i believe the box was home to one of the legendary Creek brother's (a signalling family of several brother's that worked various boxes around the London area during the 1940s 50s, 60s & early 70s).

" .... the later New Barnet North had then been No.3 (still all lines though; in fact, at the time {excluding 'branches' as at Fins.Park & Wood Green}, this was the first box heading north out of King's Cross that controlled all lines .... ".

Yes i guess New Barnet north box was the first box out of Kings Cross during G.N.R. days to have worked both the UP & DOWN running lines i never really thought about it before because in L.N.E.R. & B.R. days Harringay (passenger) was the first box out of Kings Cross to work both the UP & DOWN running lines so that being so did the original G.N.R. boxes at Oakleigh Park only work as 'one direction' boxes originally?.

The only other places on the former G.N.R. route outside of the London & Hatfield areas where there was numbered boxes that i can think of was Huntingdon north no.1 (south of the station) and Huntingdon north no.2 (north of the station) and also south of Doncaster with Decoy no.1 that signalled the DOWN lines only & Decoy no.2 that signalled the UP lines only were both fairly LARGE boxes especially Decoy no.1.

[StevieG]

" .... also i believe the box was home to one of the legendary Creek brother's (a signalling family of several brother's that worked various boxes around the London area during the 1940s 50s, 60s & early 70s). "

... yes; Harry.

" .... in L.N.E.R. & B.R. days Harringay (passenger) was the first box out of Kings Cross to work both the UP & DOWN running lines so that being so did the original G.N.R. boxes at Oakleigh Park only work as 'one direction' boxes originally?. .... "

Yes, as did the two Cemetery boxes, which you probably know of; OP Up box having been just north of the north (public; non-station) footbridge.

" ....

The only other places on the former G.N.R. route outside of the London & Hatfield areas where there was numbered boxes that i can think of was Huntingdon north no.1 (south of the station) and Huntingdon north no.2 (north of the station) and .... "

I've an idea that before the GN and GE stations there came under the same ownership at the Grouping, the GN station was just "Huntingdon", and those boxes 'South' and 'North' (the GER had its own box at the east end of their station): If so, it was probably only when the LNER called the stations 'North' and 'East', that the GN boxes would both have followed suit, having 'North' added to their names, and so would have had to be numbered to distinguish between them.

If we're lucky, thesignalman, AndyRush, or someone else who has good records, might be on at some point, to confirm or dispel our recollections Micky.

[Mickey]

" .... in L.N.E.R. & B.R. days Harringay (passenger) was the first box out of Kings Cross to work both the UP & DOWN running lines so that being so did the original G.N.R. boxes at Oakleigh Park only work as 'one direction' boxes originally?. .... "

Yes, as did the two Cemetery boxes, which you probably know of; OP Up box having been just north of the north (public; non-station) footbridge.

Interesting Stevie I didn't know that those earlier boxes at Oakleigh Park were 'one direction' boxes i didn't make the connection that they were i just thought that the G.N.R. were just 'up dating' there boxes at Oakleigh Park at different times in different years because apart from the 1924 box on the south end of the Down line platforms between the Down fast & Down slow lines which was obviously a 'two directions' box there was an earlier box situated beside the Down slow line further to the south of the station plus another box was situated at the north end of the station between the Up fast & Up slow lines (under or near the previously mentioned footbridge) which were both obviously 'one direction' boxes i see that now, i didn't make the connection that the earlier boxes were both 'one direction' boxes and were both working the UP & DOWN lines separately during the same time period?.

So i presume the DOWN LINE box was named Oakleigh Park no.1 and the UP LINE box was named Oakleigh Park no.2.

So at onetime 'one direction' s/boxes stretched all the way from Belle Isle to New Barnet which is the first 10 miles distance from Kings Cross to New Barnet.

[AndyRush]

If we're lucky, thesignalman, AndyRush, or someone else who has good records, might be on at some point, to confirm or dispel our recollections Micky.

I can deal with this one, after a fashion!
There must have been a box at the South end of Huntingdon GN station (logically on or by June 1874 when the North signal box opened) which presumably controlled the GN&GE Joint Junction from 01.05.1883 when the Joint station opened, but I don't know anything about it. According to Michael Vanns it didn't last very long after that as he records a new Huntingdon South signal box opening on the down side in 1894. That, in turn, was short lived, being replaced in 1900 by a box of the same name on the up side. It was still named that in a photo I have dated 07.12.1910, but by 1927 was named Huntingdon North No.1 signal box (suffix added to station name 01.07.1923) and remained so named until 15.06.1964, when it was renamed Huntingdon No.1 (the date the station lost its suffix), although there is some doubt as to whether the box actually had its nameboards changed at exactly the same time. Certainly, by the 1969 Appendix it was plain Huntingdon No.1 and closed on 13.03.1977

Andy

[Mickey]

If we're lucky, thesignalman, AndyRush, or someone else who has good records, might be on at some point, to confirm or dispel our recollections Micky.

I can deal with this one, after a fashion!
There must have been a box at the South end of Huntingdon GN station (logically on or by June 1874 when the North signal box opened) which presumably controlled the GN&GE Joint Junction from 01.05.1883 when the Joint station opened, but I don't know anything about it. According to Michael Vanns it didn't last very long after that as he records a new Huntingdon South signal box opening on the down side in 1894. That, in turn, was short lived, being replaced in 1900 by a box of the same name on the up side. It was still named that in a photo I have dated 07.12.1910, but by 1927 was named Huntingdon North No.1 signal box (suffix added to station name 01.07.1923) and remained so named until 15.06.1964, when it was renamed Huntingdon No.1 (the date the station lost its suffix), although there is some doubt as to whether the box actually had its nameboards changed at exactly the same time. Certainly, by the 1969 Appendix it was plain Huntingdon No.1 and closed on 13.03.1977.

Thanks Andy, yes the two Huntingdon boxes were both of different ages and designs obviously Huntingdon no.2 (north of the station) was the older of the two boxes and at a guess i would say was built sometime around 1875-1880?.

Huntingdon no.1 was the 'main box' between the two boxes at Huntingdon station as Huntingdon no.2 was 'switched out' at weekends certainly by 1970 onwards.

I once spent a whole Sunday at Huntingdon station 'spotting' between 10:am-6:pm in 1970 and observed the working at the station which back in 1970 was a fairly 'sparse' happening when it came to actual train movements which were mostly performed by Deltic & Brush type 4 hauled express workings with 'long gaps' between trains so that the 'bobby' in Huntingdon no.1 box was occasionally seen in & out of the box and up & down the box staircase and on one occasion he was actually seen at the bottom of the box staircase washing his motor for a period of time!.