Scrapbook Pic - Year?

[Mickey]

Those very tall signal posts with a 'sky background' wouldn't be allowed in more modern times on H&E grounds.

There use to be x2 tall lattice post co-acting arms Junction home signals (that was a mouthful) at Kew East Junction until that box closed last summer (2012) although the 'top arms' had been removed back in the late 1970s on reasons of H&E grounds because of lampmen having to climb to the very top of those signal posts to change the signal oil lamps was deemed to dangerous.

I believe those x2 lattice signal posts have been acquired for preservation somewhere in the country?.

[giner]

But there must have been some sort of visual obstruction on approach to those signals to necessitate them being mounted on such tall posts. Another bridge, perhaps?

Steve: yes, I wondered about the closeness of the posts to the bridge, too. That, too, sort of reinforces the thought about visibility. Otherwise they surely could have been placed a few yards further from the bridge. Oh, the things we ponder.

[AndyRush]

But there must have been some sort of visual obstruction on approach to those signals to necessitate them being mounted on such tall posts. Another bridge, perhaps?

Steve: yes, I wondered about the closeness of the posts to the bridge, too. That, too, sort of reinforces the thought about visibility. Otherwise they surely could have been placed a few yards further from the bridge. Oh, the things we ponder.

The previous bridge was nearly ¼ mile to the south and examination of the high res shot through 250 past Belton box doesn't appear to show anything that could have stopped the signals being a little nearer London.

I've rotated the picture of 251 (it's a change to be talking about this as a bridge number rather than an engine number....!) in my original post - it was back to front

Andy

[StevieG]

" But there must have been some sort of visual obstruction on approach to those signals to necessitate them being mounted on such tall posts. Another bridge, perhaps? .... "

'Way back when', it seems to have been the applied philosophy that a sky background to the arms for daytime viewing while on the move was best, hence many signals like these, though the lamps and spectacles for nigh-time viewing were unsurprisingly, usually much lower down .

I've seen a photo or two of Hatfield station, looking north from, including a passing train or two, in olden times.
Given the proliferation of signals there including several that were multi-armed for divergences, some posts had an arm for both ways, and some were on the 'wrong' side of the line for earlier sighting, the array of high-up arms that the footplatemen had to locate, differentiate (between theirs and those for other lines), observe, and interpret was quite astonishing.

[Mickey]

I've seen a photo or two of Hatfield station, looking north from, including a passing train or two, in olden times.

I believe i have seen these same photographs as well Stevie which i believe were taken circa 1880s?. The very tall signal post situated on the down side of the line (which also carries a up fast line signal as well and appears to be slightly leaning towards the down fast line!!) i presume belongs to both Hatfield no.3 down fast line signal and Hatfield no.2 up fast line signal and for a lampman to change the oil lamps at the very top of the signal post he had to climb up the side of the signal post using hand/foot holds and not even a ladder!!.

Given the proliferation of signals there including several that were multi-armed for divergences, some posts had an arm for both ways, and some were on the 'wrong' side of the line for earlier sighting, the array of high-up arms that the footplatemen had to locate, differentiate (between theirs and those for other lines), observe, and interpret was quite astonishing.

Well of course Stevie BUT back in those dim and distant days railwaymen were RAILWAYMEN!!.

Not like to days lot who can SPAD a RED colour light signal at 'eye level' that they can see 'clearly' for up to 200, 300 & 400 yards away thats in there face with the aid of both AWS & TPWS???.

[manna]

G'Day Gents

I wonder how they would cope with a 1,000 ton coal train, with only the engine with brakes

manna

[Mickey]

I wonder how they would cope with a 1,000 ton coal train, with only the engine with brakes.

Pre-continuous brakes on trains trains only had the hand screw brake on the tender and individual hand screw brakes in the guards brake compartment(s) on trains like the Flying Scotsman.

They would have done alright manna cos you was dealing with ''real railwaymen''.

[manna]

G'Day Gents

Going back to signal heights,there used to be some very tall signals in the Tempsford area, which like most others in the early 70's had the lamps way up top, and on a very dirty night coming back from Peterborough with a slow goods train for KX goods, we were very hard pressed to see the offending signals, by the time we had sighted them we were down to about 20mph, this was one of the nights I didn't have to walk up to the box, and sign the book

manna

[StevieG]

" .... The very tall signal post situated on the down side of the line (which also carries a up fast line signal as well and appears to be slightly leaning towards the down fast line!!) i presume belongs to both Hatfield no.3 down fast line signal and Hatfield no.2 up fast line signal .... "

If we're talking about the same signal post/location, I've a feeling but can't be sure now, that the Up signal, rather than being for No.2, might've been for the 'Up Main' (Up Fast), in which case it would've been (then) for No.4 box (at, or roughly where, the No.1 box that we knew was : I.e., when the Down lines were worked by the old No.1 on the Down side).

[Iron Duke]

Excellent & informed response from previous scrapbook pics, they have also generated a lot of interesting spin off discussion.
Three more loose (never pasted) so condition not too bad. Locos are as numbered, but any guess on year or location

[StevieG]

Can only have a go at two, for locations :

2510: There's a points rod prominent in the foreground so we shouldn't be more than 350 yards from a signal box or ground frame, and is that a ground disc signal much further away to the right? -
- from the configuration and close proximity to each other of the main signals seen above (behind), I think they are Potters Bar's Up Inner Home signals, so this would be a Down train not far north of PB station.

10000 : Looks like a favourite location for photography : I'd say a Down train about 1,000 yards north of Potters Bar (near the London 'coal levy' obelisk) on the approach to 'Hawkshead bridge'.

[Mickey]

" .... The very tall signal post situated on the down side of the line (which also carries a up fast line signal as well and appears to be slightly leaning towards the down fast line!!) i presume belongs to both Hatfield no.3 down fast line signal and Hatfield no.2 up fast line signal .... "

If we're talking about the same signal post/location, I've a feeling but can't be sure now, that the Up signal, rather than being for No.2, might've been for the 'Up Main' (Up Fast), in which case it would've been (then) for No.4 box (at, or roughly where, the No.1 box that we knew was : I.e., when the Down lines were worked by the old No.1 on the Down side).

Yes your correct Stevie, thinking about it that signal would have been worked by Hatfield no.4 and would have been no.4s up fast line home signal.

Yes if that signal had been worked by Hatfield no.2 it would have had a distant signal beneath it worked by Hatfield no.4 box.

[Mickey]

Can only have a go at two, for locations :

2510: There's a points rod prominent in the foreground so we shouldn't be more than 350 yards from a signal box or ground frame, and is that a ground disc signal much further away to the right? -
- from the configuration and close proximity to each other of the main signals seen above (behind), I think they are Potters Bar's Up Inner Home signals, so this would be a Down train not far north of PB station.

10000 : Looks like a favourite location for photography : I'd say a Down train about 1,000 yards north of Potters Bar (near the London 'coal levy' obelisk) on the approach to 'Hawkshead bridge'.

Yes i agree with Stevie, as for the middle photograph of no.4468 i reckon it is a up express just south of Ganwick (on the 2 road section) between Potters Bar tunnel and Hadley Wood north tunnel, there is a signal wire(s) running along the cess.

[Mickey]

Going back to signal heights,there used to be some very tall signals in the Tempsford area, which like most others in the early 70's had the lamps way up top...

There was a number of very tall signal posts still around in the late 1960s & early 1970s three of which come to mind.

1.A very tall lattice post with a x3 doll bracket post signals at Hatfield no.3 coming off the up Luton branch (sighted on the right-hand side of the Luton line). Also at Hatfield no.3 was a tall lattice post with a x3 doll bracket post coming off the stAlbans branch which was also tall as well, both of these signal posts were abolished circa 1968.

2.A tall wooden post with a x2 doll bracket post signals at Hitchin south-Up fast line home signal & Up fast to Up slow line signal (sighted on the right-hand side of the running lines) with a 'sky background'. Also the tall wooden post with a x2 doll bracket post signals also at Hitchin South-Up slow line home & Up slow to Up fast line signal standing opposite, both of these 2 signal posts were abolished circa 1975?.

Maybe Hitchin Yard's Down fast line home signal with the Down slow line home signal & Down slow to Down fast line signal on a lattice post gantry just near the box was also a fairly tall set of signals as well.

3.A tall wooden post with a x2 doll bracket post signals at Huntingdon north no.1-Down fast line home signal & Down fast to Down slow line signal (sighted on the right-hand side of the Down fast running line between the Down & Up fast lines) with a 'sky background'. This signal post was abolished circa 1976?.

The above three examples of 'very tall' signal posts were as posted all sighted on the right-hand side of there running lines except the Hitchin South Up slow line & Up slow to Up fast line signals & the Hitchin Yard Down fast line & Down slow line signal gantry.

[61070]

Going back, if I may, to the photo of 2501 posted on page 2. I've just been browsing the latest additions to DaveF's marvellously evocative photos linked to at viewtopic.php?f=15&t=8494

Here's the scene of the crime c.1953, with colour light in foreground and painted background for former semaphore on the bridge brickwork behind:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/davidwf200 ... hotostream

The plate on the signal appears to read BS14 (BS = Barkston South?).