"Ware" on 313's blinds

[Mr Bunt]

I was watching the destination blind of a 313 being changed at Hertford North a few weeks ago and among the station names which rolled past my eyes was Ware!

What on earth is that doing on 313's blinds? And how would you terminate trains there without causing massive road congestion - presumably for safety reasons the barriers on Amwell End level crossing would need to be lowered every time a Down train approached, whether it was going any further or not?

[Autocar Publicity]

Ware is also a [very] small place on the Devon - Dorset border just outside Lyme Regis and I have a photo of a signpost "Footpath to Ware"...

[manna]

G'Day Gents

Whilst doing my training to work on 158's we were shown how to work the electronic blinds on these new units, they came with a small instruction manual, with the number codes to bring up destinations, such as Leeds, Wakefield etc after the instructor had left, we had a little time to 'play' with this new toy, we very quickly worked out that there were lots more destinations in there than we thought, there were dozens of them, we never found out how many, but we did find some of stations that had been closed for years.

But to go back to your question, trains often terminate, at an out of the way station, and then carry on to somewhere else, at Kings Cross one on the evening loco hauled trains, used to terminate at Hertford North, then ECS to Hitchin, I think there was also a Hatfield terminator, that went ECS to Welwyn G C.

manna

[WTTReprinter]

I was watching the destination blind of a 313 being changed at Hertford North a few weeks ago and among the station names which rolled past my eyes was Ware!

What on earth is that doing on 313's blinds? And how would you terminate trains there without causing massive road congestion - presumably for safety reasons the barriers on Amwell End level crossing would need to be lowered every time a Down train approached, whether it was going any further or not?

Mr Bunt.

Unless it has changed since I was signalman at Ware, the signalling allows a train to run into Ware station with the barriers raised, and turn round back to London without lowering the barriers. Even if the barriers were lowered, two minutes after the train came to a stand in the platform the barriers could be raised again.
If there was a shortage of signalmen, it would occasionally happen that Hertford would close and all services would terminate at Ware, starting back the return working from there (I had several shifts where this happened) Now that Liverpool Street supervise the area, I have no reason to expect there to have been any major change here.

[Mickey]

Deleted

[WTTReprinter]

Unless it has changed since I was signalman at Ware, the signalling allows a train to run into Ware station with the barriers raised, and turn round back to London without lowering the barriers. Even if the barriers were lowered, two minutes after the train came to a stand in the platform the barriers could be raised again.

Interesting?. If a train was brought into the station with the road barriers raised would the driver receive a subsidary signal (like a Warning signal?) at Ware's first controlled signal at the south end of Ware station into the station platform or just a Yellow main aspect?.

If the driver mis-judged his stopping distance and went onto or over the crossing with the barriers raised i bet there would be some questions asked?. I bet since Ware s/box closed (circa 2002?) that facility has either been modified of discontinued?.

Shame about Ware & Hertford East s/boxes closing i use to like those two boxes.

Hi Micky

When I worked it, if a train was allowed to approach the station with the barriers raised, the signal outside the station (WA17) would be held at danger until the train was nearly at a stand at it (in the old rule book that was the means to advise the driver he was approaching the signal under Warning Arrangement, even under TCB.)

However, there have been many changes in Signalling Standards and 'Warner' routes such as these are becoming rare so it may be this facility was removed when control passed to Liverpool St. It may well now be that the crossing must be lowered to allow the train to arrive, then raised once it has come to a stand in the platform, just in case a SPAD occurs.

Perhaps someone familiar with Liverpool St IECC might comment.

[Mr Bunt]

Unless it has changed since I was signalman at Ware, the signalling allows a train to run into Ware station with the barriers raised, and turn round back to London without lowering the barriers. Even if the barriers were lowered, two minutes after the train came to a stand in the platform the barriers could be raised again.

Interesting?. If a train was brought into the station with the road barriers raised would the driver receive a subsidary signal (like a Warning signal?) at Ware's first controlled signal at the south end of Ware station into the station platform or just a Yellow main aspect?.

If the driver mis-judged his stopping distance and went onto or over the crossing with the barriers raised i bet there would be some questions asked?. I bet since Ware s/box closed (circa 2002?) that facility has either been modified of discontinued?.

Shame about Ware & Hertford East s/boxes closing i use to like those two boxes.

Hi Micky

When I worked it, if a train was allowed to approach the station with the barriers raised, the signal outside the station (WA17) would be held at danger until the train was nearly at a stand at it (in the old rule book that was the means to advise the driver he was approaching the signal under Warning Arrangement, even under TCB.)

However, there have been many changes in Signalling Standards and 'Warner' routes such as these are becoming rare so it may be this facility was removed when control passed to Liverpool St. It may well now be that the crossing must be lowered to allow the train to arrive, then raised once it has come to a stand in the platform, just in case a SPAD occurs.

Perhaps someone familiar with Liverpool St IECC might comment.

If Down train movements into Ware with the crossing barriers in the raised position were still permitted today I'd expect the station to be as full with TPWS grids as Hertford East. It isn't.

I've just had a look and the only track mounted signalling equipment at Ware is two AWS magnets and two TPWS grids, one of each at either end of the station. Because it's a dead end terminus Hertford East has TPWS grids all over the place to protect against buffer stop collisions.

An open level crossing presents a similar level of risk/hazard so I'd expect TPWS protection on its approach to be at least as elaborate. Its virtual absence at Ware strongly suggests that the barriers now have to be lowered before any train can enter the station.

[Mickey]

Deleted

[StevieG]

Might the Down signal on the platform line (single line) section be a bit further from the crossing than the old - or anyway, perhaps at the decreed modern-day (about the last 20 years) absolute minimum of 25 metres? (I think the official LC requirements still allow for 'down to' 25 metres if necessary but normally require 50 metres).

If the TPWS grid is beside, or only a foot or two past, the signal post, it's a TSS (Train Stop Sensor) and triggers a train's full brake demand immediately on passing the signal at red : Together with the low permitted speed there, that might have been calculated as sufficient to stop a train before it reached the road on the crossing.
As a further sort-of mitigation against collision, a train SPAD-ing the signal should start the red 'wig-wag' road lights (no amber first) as soon as it occupies the track circuit beyond the signal.

[cambois]

The crossing at Kirknewton is currently an AHB and has signaller controls which enable a stopping train to arrive in the up platform with the barriers raised. The driver gets out and presses a plunger to get the barriers to drop and the signal aspect to change to a proceed aspect.

When it is converted to an MCB (OD) the same arrangement will still apply! The notice does not show how the TPWS will work - possibly an OSS grid to ensure the train speed is low enough.

There must be other crossings at stations where the same applies - remembering that a level crossing is not considered an obstruction fr the purposes of accepting a train

[Mickey]

I never worked a level crossing s/box (i never wanted to although back in the 1980s i did train Bollo Lane a few times but never passed out the box because in my opinion crossing boxes are to much hassel to work) and although i agree with everything that has been written above it still sounds abit 'iffy' to me if a driver arrives in a station with a level crossing immediately ahead of where the train normally stops to arrive in the station with the level crossing barriers in the raised position (even if there is a RED signal protecting the level crossing?) and road traffic still going over the level crossing without either being warned by the signalling or verbally warned by the signaller that the level crossing barriers are in the raised position?.

[52D]

I must admit when in East Anglia I didn't envy the signalman at Shipea Hill, out of the cabin in all weathers to hand operate the gates as well as the day to day running of the box. Far easier with a Wheel and even easier with electrics. Has the aforementioned box been replaced yet? I know it was on the list to do.

[third-rail]

the tyneside metro has a few stations with level crossings after the platform but not much chance of the train getting any more than a few metres past the start signal on red as the magnetic track brakes would drop for an abrupt stop or overshooting any stop signal come to that

[StevieG]

The crossing at Kirknewton is currently an AHB and has signaller controls which enable a stopping train to arrive in the up platform with the barriers raised. The driver gets out and presses a plunger to get the barriers to drop and the signal aspect to change to a proceed aspect.

When it is converted to an MCB (OD) the same arrangement will still apply! The notice does not show how the TPWS will work - possibly an OSS grid to ensure the train speed is low enough.

There must be other crossings at stations where the same applies - remembering that a level crossing is not considered an obstruction fr the purposes of accepting a train

Pretty certain that Ware is still an MCB (CCTV), from Liverpool Street.

[Boris]

Worksop was something like this.
Trains heading East towards Retford had a clear signal all the way, but once they stopped at the platform the signal was put a danger and the gates opened.

This was held like this until the guard signaled to go and the driver blew the whistle, then the gates were closed and the signal cleared again