J71 at Colwick?

[Tim Allsopp]

Hello all
Could anyone tell me if any J71 0-6-0T loco's were ever allocated to Colwick shed?
Thanks in advance
Tim

[Saint Johnstoun]

I can find no evidence of J71s being allocated to Colwick - they remained in the North Eastern Area with a brief sojourn to Eastfield in Scotland.

J72s (which are similar but smaller) did go to Colwick in 1924 in connection with coal consumption trials.

[Greedy Boards]

Hi

Colwick is not particularly mentioned, but J71 68238 went on loan to the LM Region between 1/1/52 - 6/9/53. Given the proximity of the Great Central to the LM Region, might this be a possibility?

Regards

Greedy Boards

[Tim Allsopp]

Thank you gents for your quick replies to my question.It looks like I might be able to get away with using a J72 instead of a J71.
Cheers
Tim

[69999]

In 1953 68238 was sent to Normanton shed in the West Riding - code 20D. It was sent there to work the restricted line to and sidings inside the chemical works which later became Hickson and Welsh.
DG
69999

[52D]

Normanton was LNER territory anyway, the furthermost south point of the former NER. So it didn't really leave home turf.

[Greedy Boards]

Re: My last on this subject, would just like to point out that a J71 was allocated to the LM Region for a year or so in the early 1950s. Given that Colwick was on the Great Central near Nottingham, and that Nottingham also had an LM Region station, could this locomotive not have operated in both the LM Region and in the proximity of Colwick at one and the same time?

Regards

Greedy Boards

[69999]

Greedy Boards
The original poster deserves an accurate response to his request.
The answer to your speculation is - No.
Also Colwick was Great Northern not Great Central.
A shame you say 'Your last on the subject'. Because -
What is your source for this vague 'on loan to the LMR' story? On loan to where? For what reason?
68238 was allocated to 20D Normanton for specific work not generally on loan around the LMR.

52D
The NER/LNER was never 'at' Normanton. It may have come very close at Castleford and into the colliery and industrial branches between the two but Normanton was Midland/LMS including the shed. The LNER/NER certainly worked into and through Niormanton but not on their own tracks.
There is ample evidence in the ABC Locosheds as to the J71's allocated to 20D in the 1950's - indeed they stayed there almost to the demise as a class.
According to RCTS 8B p15 one 'acted as the NER representative at the Midland Shed at Normanton, a tradition which was upheld to the B R period'.
DG
69999

[52D]

I think you will find that NMN was the NER shed code for the NER & MR joint shed at Normanton.
Source the Late Ken Hoole.

[Greedy Boards]

Picking up on comments already made, perhaps I could explain my terminology first, and apologise for lapsing into Army-speak, when I previously used the term "Re: my last on . . .", when what I should have said "With reference to my previous posting . . .", as some may have misinterpreted that I wouldn't be talking about the subject any further - Not so!

Could I also apologise for my ignorance in stating that Colwick was a GCR shed, when it is obviously of the GNR lineage. However, the MR, GNR and GCR all operated in the area of Nottingham, it can be confusing for some, and I understand that there was both a Nottingham Midland Station, and Nottingham Victoria Station, which I believe was a compromise name, when it was shared by both GCR and GNR, as the seperate original proposals of Nottingham Central and Nottingham Joint Station had caused some degree of debate at the time.

In terms of Normanton, this was also a joint venture between the MR and NER. The York and North Midland Railway was extended south in 1840, from Burton Salmon to the MR line at Altofts Junction, with Normanton Station the nearest to this interface. The Y&NM and its successor North Eastern Railway has a good working relationship with the MR and Normanton Joint Station was duly enlarged in 1867-68 to cope with increased traffic created by the exchange of both passengers and goods between the MR and NER (The North Eastern Railway, W W Tomlinson). Consequently, in addition to the station, both the shed and goods yard/sidings witnessed joint operations between the two companies, and the NER certainly maintained locomotives at Normanton Shed (NMN) (Locomotive Stock of the North Eastern Railway, K Hoole). In regards to my own pet subject of the iron and steel industry on Teesside, Bell Brothers were certainly conveying iron ore from Northamptonshire at Glendon & Rushton on the MR via Normanton, where it was switched to the NER for subsequent conveyance to their blast furnaces at Port Clarence on the Tees in the early 1900s (Private Owner wagons Vol 2, B Hudson); and the South Durham Iron & Steel Company also owned ironstone quarries in Irchester & Storefield in Northamptonshire upto the mid-1960s, prior to nationalisation, and the ore was also conveyed to their Cargo Fleet Works in Middlesbrough (Industrial Steam in the 50s & 60s, E Sawford).

Finally, on the matter of 0-6-0T J71 68238, the history of this locomotive includes entering traffic at Hull Alexandra Dock in May 1887; allocated to York on 1st July 1924; Normanton 12th June 1937; on loan to LM Region 1st January 1952; allocated to Normanton (LMR) 6th September 1953; condemned 5th September 1955; and cut up at Darlington September 1955 (Yeadon's Register of LNER Locomotives Vol 43A, Class J71 & J72). Sorry that I can't provide any more detail on the loan to the LM Region, but it would infer that the locomotive operated away from Normanton for the period.

I therefore hope that readers will now find this explanation sufficient, and appropriately referenced.

Regards

Greedy Boards

[52D]

Thanks GB.

[Andy W]

Just to be clear, the "move" of the 3 J71 at Normanton that went o/l to LMR in January 1952 was purely an accounting treatment of an inter-regional financial adjustment. They were NER book stock working from an LMR depot on what presumably were (by then) LMR financed duties. So by making them o/l to LMR, they could be offcharged properly by painted number. It's quite a common practise and one I was doing 40 years later!

They didn't move depot during the loan period which was ended by them being transfered to LMR book stock in 1953, still at Normanton.

The same issue arose at Aylesbury with the GWR engines that were regularly outbased there.

[1H was 2E]

Thanks to Andy W for the financial explanation of the many cases of 'on loan' in the early fifties, which particularly affected the 'Austerities'. In the December 1951 SLS Journal the following opaque paragraph appeared, 'It seems that an official restriction on capital transfers operates with regard to all engines which were the property of any of the previous railways up to the nationalisation, although the reason for this is not at all clear. Financially, the engines..... remain as a charge to the original owning company.........To minimise internal accounting, these engines are kept on their old company lines as far as possible'. However possibly to add to the fog the RO showed 68238/92/4 as transferred to 20D - they were already at Normanton, presumably this meant they became LM rather than NER , although no mention of on loan, and the SLS journal was silent about them (!). Several interesting posts under this subject all under 'J71 at Colwick?' shows one should read everything.......

[Andy W]

Sorry, I should have made myself clear.

The on loan refers to "LMR book stock", not to a depot. "Loaning" to depot can mean just an operational loan rather inferring any transfer of serious maintenance responsibility (diesels for driver training in the 1960's is a good example of that). Some loans would be short term local arrangements and never recorded but where there would be an agreed transfer of costs involved (either operational and/or maintenance), then it would be preferable to have some kind of transfer "on the books". There never were any hard and fast rules, at least in my day (1970's).

The same would apply where a loco was effectively working from a sub-shed "over the border" from it's parent depot. It became far easier to sort out these anomalies by permanent transfer and it is noticeable that certain MR locos working LMR sub sheds in ER territory were also transfered permanently to ER stock in 1953.