Returning to Grantham

[61070]

That's a great view from above, and interesting drawings too.

With feet on the ground, does this photo help explain how things worked? I think it's from the late 1930s.

Looking at the water tower behind, there's a large area of apparently new - certainly different - brickwork which is also evident in Iron Duke's photos. Were two different types of brick used in its initial construction? Or, perhaps, modifications were required to enable the construction of the coaling plant - e.g. removal of an associated structure?

[Iron Duke]

Wonderful photograph !
I personally do not know much about how this all worked, apart from the basics.
It will be very interesting to see further postings from other members.
I will look through my own collection of pics & drawings to see if I can match brickwork changes etc.

[ROY@34F]

[quote="Iron Duke"]Hello Roy,
Thanks for your input ref the hut, is this it on the left with the steps?[/quo

What another incredible photo.
Yes,that's the hut you refer to;also visible on your earlier photo,the later one without the wagons blocking the view.

Regards, Roy.

[ROY@34F]

Just realised I had'nt looked back far enough : had'nt seen your contribution John.Yet another revealing photo.The operators hut can clearly be seen;a wagon half tipped(I don't think it went much further) : and the skip halfway up the tower....brilliant .
What I'm not too clear of is how the skip was actually loaded - it obviously went below ground level I reckon - maybe we'll never really know for sure , unless Iron Duke can magic some more amazing drawings.
Roy.

[Iron Duke]

Ok Roy,
Here is a front elevation (interior) & a plan view showing the outline of the pit area.
These particular drawings were produced to identify the the extent of "repairs" required to the CP & adjacent pit.
According to my notes this was carried out using a substance called "Gunite" probably just after Nationalisation?

Any additional information or comments is most welcome from Forum members.

[ROY@34F]

Many thanks Iron Duke;very interesting drawings.
By the way ...the different brickwork under the water tank IS interesting , as John says;and I did'nt realise there were steps up to a door on that wall....what was in there I've no idea. If inspector Coulson (as Derek (Guy Mannering) calls him ) can't solve that brickwork query , well I'm sure I've no chance !

That latest photo of yours John is by far the clearest I have seen of the plant.I keep going back for another look.I have thought for years of making a model of it , but now , having found so much more detail , I'm afraid I doubt I'll ever get round to it . But all these revelations are very fascinating . Thanks to all your input gentlemen .
Regards , Roy .

P.S.
On just re-reading my ramblings...I now reckon the door in the end of the water tower was the way up to the coaling area of the old stage , just came back to me . Though I don't ever remember the old stage being used in my time .
Roy.

[mossie]

Hi Roy

On page 40 of the book "British Railways Engine Sheds No.1" there is a General Arrangement drawing showing how one of these towers worked. The drawing shows the tipping mechanism, the underground chute and flap and the concrete control and operator's cabins.

I used this drawing to build a model of one of these tower, but reduced it in size to fit the layout I was building, I even built a representation of the underground chute and flap. The layout is on hold at the moment.

If you want to see any pictures of my build just PM me.

Regards

Richard

[strang steel]

I think I may have been confusing some of the locos bought by Butlins with those that ended up at Bressingham. LMS 6100 Royal Scot was I believe at the latter place. Did LMS 6233 come from there too before it was returned to the main line? There was also an LMS Pacific at Butlins Pwllheli I think. Was it 6203? Perhaps someone in the Butlins organisation liked big LMS engines more than A4s.

No, Bressingham came later.

Royal Scot in LMS red livery and towed by a B1, passed our back garden (between Sleaford and Boston) on a summers evening in 1963. My dad was so amazed at the sight that we jumped in the car and raced off to catch up with the ensemble on the road which runs parallel to the line between Swineshead Bridge and Boston.

John

Not quite Grantham related I know, but I have finally dug out the relevant magazines and found the reports of 6100's move from Crewe Works to Butlins.

Black 5 no. 45038 towed Royal Scot from Crewe to Nottingham on June 12th 1963, and it was taken forward to Boston by 61177. 6100 resided on Boston shed for a couple of days before being towed to Skegness by an Ivatt 4MT, where it was transferred to a low loader for the final journey along the A52 to Butlins at Ingoldmells.

[workev]

I am trying to extend my research to look at diesel workings at Grantham, and am putting out an open query for info, either directly or indirectly for workings of Peaks and Whistlers between their introduction and the late 1960s.

The takeover of services by diesels after Top Shed and Grantham closed were rapid to say the least, but unlike the Deltics I am struggling to find info on rostered workings for the Class 40s and 46s.

I think Trains Illustrated/Modern Railways and Railway Observer may hold some info, but wondered whether anybody has any website links that may help.

I have also seen some photos of Peaks on she'd at Grantham, although I cannot recall if any of those are pre-closure.

Ian

[strang steel]

I may edit this post if or when I discover new info, so it may grow with time. (all from Railway Observer).

I have discovered that one of the first regular diesel goods diagrams on the ECML was York EE Type 4s taking over the 1805 Niddrie to Kings Cross class C goods and 1225 Ferme Park to Niddrie.

This was from November 21st 1960

The EE Type 4s on the Master Cutler would pre-date this by a year or possibly two, although they seemed so unreliable that all manner of substitutes were seen.

By the summer of 1961, Neville Hill EE 4s had a regular diagram on the down Queen Of Scots from Leeds to Edinburgh, 2250 Edinburgh to KX, 1150 KX to Leeds, up Q o S to London, 2320 KX to Edinburgh and up Q o S from Edinburgh to Leeds.

There was also York EE4 diagrams which covered

the up Tees-Thames and the 2010 KX to Newcastle class C.

0732 York to KX class C (Aberdeen meat) and 0500 KX to York parcels

2100 York Clifton to KX fish and 0250 KX to Niddrie class C

1433 York to Peterborough (the Northumbrian) and 2125 Peterborough to York.

A note below that list states that the latter only operates when the Noresman does not run, otherwise the up Northumbrian is the return working of the loco off the down Norseman.

I am still trying to find the first Peak diagram.

The first working of a Peak into Kings Cross may have been D25 on 15th November 1961. It was undertaking dynamometer trials with 10 coaches plus the dynamometer car, between Newcastle and KX with a schedule of 4 hours and 7 mins and returned from KX the following day on a slower schedule.

Ironically, for those pedants in the past (from other websites) that have informed me categorically that no class 45s were seen in Kings Cross during the 60s, 70s and 80s (despite there being several photos of them on Flickr providing you are willing to do a bit of searching), another of that class appeared on 9th January 1962, this time in the form of D35 on the 1729 Leeds to KX. If that was not newsworthy in itself, D35 was allocated to Bath Road (Bristol) at the time.

It would seem that D154 was sent to Finsbury Park, or Clarence Yard, depot on 27th February 1962 for crew training, and Peaks began to work the 1700 Bradford to Kings Cross from about that time, returning on the down White Rose the following day.

D11 was seen on 23rd February, D26 on 27th February and D151 on 3rd March.

Once the Deltics appeared in mid-61, the dieselisation of the ECML accelerated (in more ways than one).


It always amazes me how quickly the creeping dieselisation progressed.

[workev]

John,

Many thanks, it's this kind of info that might help piece stuff together. I must try and look at some of my TI's and Modern Railways from that time.

Ian

[strang steel]

No problems Ian.

With it being so cold outside, the choice between gardening and browsing old Railway Observers was really a non-starter.

[workev]

No problems Ian.

With it being so cold outside, the choice between gardening and browsing old Railway Observers was really a non-starter.

Now that I can understand!

Interesting with regards to the 45s, I am pretty sure I saw one there in the late 70s.

Will be interested seeing whether any photos emerge of diesels on she'd at Grantham, must dig out my books to see what I have.

Ian

[strang steel]

Well I have seen mention of a few Deltic failures at Grantham in the magazines that I have scanned for the info posted above, although it does not say what happened to the failures.

I doubt that there was much that Grantham fitters could do, except to arrange for a tow back to the home depot.

[StevieG]

Class 45s in King's Cross???

Well SS and workev, you are right and your certain 'pedants' are wrong, at least as far as the mid-70s are concerned.

I was at times on the power (locos etc.) desk in KX Control then, and although I'm pretty sure that none were diagrammed to/from KX, they did occasionally get put on an Up Leeds working if crewed by Holbeck men.
This could be problematic at 'the Cross' because incoming locos were not usually diagrammed to go back on the same Down working as the inward footplate crew, and, apart from one or two Peterborough drivers, no-one in the KX Division was trained/passed on working them, unlike the 46s, some of which were based in the north-east (e.g. Gateshead), and which counted as a different loco as far as training/being passed for was concerned; so crewing them was not usually a problem.

So in order to avoid being lumbered with a 45 'on-depot' at KX that could wait and be in the way for quite a few hours until being able to allocate it for some other Holbeck men to work Down with, and having to send a good one of 'your own' on the inward crew's back working, efforts were often made to get the inward 45 available for the same crew to work back with, even, sometimes to make this possible, to the extent of getting the station pilot to do a 'Shunt release' (shunt the inward stock out of the platform then back into the station), so that the 45 could be got out from behind, and if necessary serviced, much earlier than becoming accessible in the normal way by the scheduled departure of the inward stock.