Atlantic's works: Portable layout - Scenic details next

[Atlantic 3279]

Regarding the A2/1 Graeme, I would be very interested to know if your current thinking is still along the following lines:

Bachmann A2 chassis;
Hornby A1/3 Margate body;
Resin & etched parts (as supplied to me recently);
Bachmann V2 tender.

I have a Hornby China Doncaster A1 body - would this be an acceptable alternative to the Margate body?

Hi Jim (and Happy New Year when it comes)

I've just remembered that you asked this question. Tender aside, which others have since discussed, you A2/1 recipe is the one that I'll be using, shortening the rear frames of the Bachmann chassis by whatever method looks most viable when I get around to it.

Is A1 Doncaster the tender-driven Chinese version? If so, then I believe the body is very similar in nature to the Margate ones so I can't foresee problems. If its the new generation loco driven version I imagine you could still use it, as it's the shape and dimensions that count, although there might be different problems and solutions to explore. However, if it is one of the new bodies, and is a nice one, does it make sense to sacrifice it in a project such as this? You'll be hacking off the front end, putting the cab to spare, and probably cleaning some of the nice features off the body moulding. Spare tender-drive bodies are cheap enough from EKM so why not keep the nice one safe and use one of those instead?

[2002EarlMarischal]

I hadn't checked the history of the liveries before shooting my mouth off about my ideas for the A2/1. As I can't have an authentic portrayal of an A2/1 in true LNER green livery with small smoke lifters and a six-wheeled tender (despite having a very suitable B1 spare tender) then I think the most practical option, given that time for building and application of livery will be restricted, is to finish the loco as 60508 with the easily fitted large deflectors and standard Bachmann A2 rivetted tender. This pre-supposes that I actually get the A2/2 done first

I have been looking at the A2/1s from the point of view of timeline and hope the summaries below may be useful:


3696/507/60507 Highland Chieftan
BUILT UNLINED BLACK/NE ON TENDER May-44
ELECTRIC LIGHTING Jun-45
8-WHEEL TENDER Dec-45
RENUMBERED May-46
TENDER LETTERING EXTENDED TO LNER May-47 gill sans
LARGE SMOKE DEFLECTORS May-47
NAMED May-47
BRITISH RAILWAYS ON TENDER Oct-48
BR NUMBER Nov-48
BR GREEN Oct-49
ELECTRIC LIGHTING REMOVED 1950-52
WITHDRAWN Dec-60

3697/508/60508 Duke of Rothesay
BUILT UNLINED BLACK/NE ON TENDER Jun-44
TENDER LETTERING EXTENDED TO LNER Mar-46 shaded transfers
RENUMBERED Jul-46
NAMED Jan-47
LARGE SMOKE DEFLECTORS Jan-47
TENDER LETTERING CHANGED TO GILL SANS Jul-47 gill sans
E-PREFIX/LNER ON TENDER Feb-48
BR NUMBER May-48
APPLE GREEN Sep-48
8-WHEEL TENDER Jun-49
BR GREEN Jun-49
WITHDRAWN Feb-61

3698/509/60509 Waverley
BUILT UNLINED BLACK/NE ON TENDER Nov-44
ELECTRIC LIGHTING Mar-45
RENUMBERED Jul-46
TENDER LETTERING EXTENDED TO LNER Oct-46 shaded transfers
8-WHEEL TENDER Oct-46
NAMED Oct-46
LARGE SMOKE DEFLECTORS Oct-46
BR NUMBER Aug-48
APPLE GREEN Aug-48
BR GREEN Jun-50
ELECTRIC LIGHTING REMOVED 1950-52
WITHDRAWN Aug-60

3699/510/60510 Robert the Bruce
BUILT UNLINED BLACK/NE ON TENDER Jan-45
ELECTRIC LIGHTING Jul-45
TENDER LETTERING EXTENDED TO LNER Jun-46 shaded transfers
RENUMBERED Jun-46
LARGE SMOKE DEFLECTORS Apr-48
NAMED Apr-48
BR NUMBER Apr-48
BRITISH RAILWAYS ON TENDER Apr-48
BR GREEN Aug-49
8-WHEEL TENDER Sep-49
ELECTRIC LIGHTING REMOVED 1950-52
WITHDRAWN Nov-60

So Graeme, whilst you can't have apple green with the small wing deflectors, you can have apple green with a six-wheel tender, but only Duke of Rothesay as modelled by Simon.

[S.A.C. Martin]

Morgan, thank you for that summary. I feel I understand the tender issue a little better! Marischal's post above too is an excellent reference.

[Atlantic 3279]

After what seems like a ridiculous struggle today I've finally got those of the various novelties that interested me fitted to Butler Henderson. The first job of course was to do a thorough running trial back and forth through all of the various curves and crossovers on my layout, at low and high speeds, and I'm glad to say that there was no mechanical or electrical mischief due to the guard irons. I've now given those a second coat or red paint too, this time Humbrol 174 with a spot of 133 (a reddish brown) and this appears to have given a better match to the original Bachmann "dull orangey" shade of red. Although it would cause an annoying amount of work with livery such as Butler Henderson's, with lining and numbers on the buffer beam, I suspect that for BR versions the quickest, easiest way to fit the guard irons really securely (in the right, workable places) would be to slot the buffer beam from below with a suitably thin saw, take the top bends off the irons, glue just the plain upright parts into the slots in the beam, then fill/smooth the front of the buffer beam and repaint it.
The whistle is back on. It appears to be cast in what I call "muck-metal" (good brittle stuff) and then given just a coating of something bright and brassy. Much patient twiddling of a 0.3mm drill bit, held in fingers only, was the only way I could find or imagine to drill up into the base of the whistle without destroying it completely. I think a 0.5mm drill would pull it apart. I eventually bored in deeply enough to get a decent stalk of 0.3mm brass wire up inside the whistle, and suprglued the wire in place. I then had to drill out the plug of metal left in the top of the plastic firebox, without wandering off into the plastic instead. What a pain . Anyway, the wire stalk is now firmly epoxied into the body moulding. It's much better not to break the whistle off in the first place.....
Further "tutting" followed when I tried to fit the front screw coupling (sorry vicar). I imagined that the square peg on the coupling might just fit nicely in the square socket in the beam. It wouldn't go in properly, wobbling around all over the place as I tried to push it home, and falling off again as soon as I let go. I thinned the peg down a touch and tried again. No joy. I then had a good look at the socket and realised that it is blind, and not deep enough to take the peg! I drilled it through and tried to open it out square as best I could with the tip of a file. Eventually the coupling went fully home, by now a looser fit in the socket than I'd have liked, but it has glued firmly in place. The rear screw coupling went in a treat. Hmmm, chalk and cheese.
I've also added the steam heating pipe at the front, but not the rear as I'm keeping the mini tension lock coupling at present. I haven't bothered with fire irons or lamps yet. I don't know whether to use Bachmann's nice small lamps which can only be glued in place, or some overscale ones drilled to sit on the irons and stuffed with blu-tack to hold them in place when desired.
The brake rigging for loco and tender went on without too much aggro. I fitted but didn't glue the tender hand brake linkage into its socket in the tender chassis. It seemed to me to make more sense to glue it to the rest of the brake rigging once all was sprung into place. The whole lot can then be released again as a single piece if required.
As I'm not likely to want to put the loco back in the box for a while now (and it DID fit with the guard irons on by the way) I've adjusted the drawbar to its shortest setting (I don't think it will fit the "egg-box" in the packaging now). The fall plate still wouldn't bridge the gap between tender and cab! The wires beneath were pushing the tender and loco apart so that the slack in the drawbar hole was always taken up. I tried pulling and bending the wires to stop them from doing this, but it was to no avail, so unless I change the drawbar entirely that's the best that can be done.
When I'd finally finished, and inspected my handiwork, I wasn't the least bit surprised to see that the most exposed of the six outer spokes of the plastic water scoop handwheel had broken off. It's staying like that. Plenty of GC tenders had broken handwheels later in their lives. I wonder if this was due to a cocktail of metal fatigue, corrosion, "heavy" coaling under coaling towers, and maybe even some use of "persuasion" by firemen trying to shift a stubborn wheel?
I might add some pictures later if the will to live remains .

Happy New Year to anyone I've missed out previously.

Pictures added 2/1/13:

Front fully tarted up

Broken whistle invisibly and durably repaired

STA78406 whistle restored.JPG[/attachment Fallplate gap, a bowed cab handrail that I'd never noticed with the naked eye, and that handbrake linkage in place especially for JJD [img]http://imageshack.us/a/img171/2156/sta78408fallplatehbrkli.jpg[/img][attachment=0]STA78408 fallplate, h-brk link, bow handrail.JPG

Cab details and ship's wheel with a spoke now missing

[60800]

Further "tutting" followed when I tried to fit the front screw coupling (sorry vicar). I imagined that the square peg on the coupling might just fit nicely in the square socket in the beam. It wouldn't go in properly, wobbling around all over the place as I tried to push it home, and falling off again as soon as I let go. I thinned the peg down a touch and tried again. No joy. I then had a good look at the socket and realised that it is blind, and not deep enough to take the peg! I drilled it through and tried to open it out square as best I could with the tip of a file. Eventually the coupling went fully home, by now a looser fit in the socket than I'd have liked, but it has glued firmly in place.

Mine went in securely with a thwack from a track rubber (crude modelling, yay!). I still haven't figured out where abouts that little lever arm is supposed to go on the tender frames though

[Atlantic 3279]

Look under the front left corner of the tender. There's a socket up inside the framing there, the long "leg" of the lever plugs up in that socket, directly under the hand-brake standard, the short leg (which has an eye in its outer end) clips onto the thick shaft on the front of the brake rigging.

[60800]

Thanks Now the only problem is fiding the thing. I could have sworn it was still in the packet...

[45609]

The lining on the boss particularly is a bit heavy. Toning down would probably help. Unlike the man in a SOCO suit I'm sure I don't have the skill to put a precision dark green bow-pen line in between the two white bands in order to make these lines neat and narrow.

Actually Graeme I think my approach to this would be to touch in the area between the white lines with a new 00 sable brush loaded with a little gloss green Humbrol enamel. Would "Emerald" #2 be a good enough match to the GCR green? The consistency of the paint is the critical thing. Thin enough to flow off the brush smoothly but thick enough to not bleed over the white lines. Something like double cream is about right. Bogie removed from the loco would be best and use the wheel opposite to the one being worked on to turn it slowly as you work round between the lines. To get steady enough hands it should be possible to rest the sides of both hands on the bench. Holding your breathe when brushing the paint on (a bit like when pulling the trigger with target shooting) is a technique that I've found helps accurate work. Personally I don't use magnification whilst applying the paint but I do check work as it progresses with a jeweller's eye glass (3x mag). If there is a spot that is a bit over painted leave it 20-30 minutes before going back with the tip of a clean brush just moistened with thinners. The paint will have skinned over a bit and it is possible to almost push the paint back to where you want it by gently wiping the brush past the ragged edge.

Give it a go.....I dare ya... and in the words of Donald Pleasence "I can see. I can see perfectly...." <trip>

HNY....Morgan

[Atlantic 3279]

Thanks Morgan, I shall squirrel away that little nugget of advice pending a day on which it seems auspicious for a painting and swearing session.

Pictures of the Butler's added details now inserted above.

[60800]

Lever arm is fixed on and the coal load has been glued in, ready for the fire irons to be fitted. I'll get the little pipes fixed on as soon as the coal load has set

[Atlantic 3279]

A2/2 progress so far. Notes to follow when I have more time:

So as not to waste a whole new smoke deflector etch on this one "demo" loco, I used some spare DJH parts and soldered on little bent legs of wire which plug into holes drilled in the smokebox. Plotting out the positions from my own interpretation of photos and from the claimed dimensions on the Isinglass drawing gave similar, though not necessarily identical, outcomes.

As you can see I've now changed the chimney too, to suit a mid 50s onwards model of 503 or 504. I've also cleaned off the moulded top access panel for the superheater as scrutiny of photos after viweing the Isinglass drawing persuaded me that no such panel was there on the original A2/2 smokeboxes. I've also filled and filed the two-part sides to the saddle to tidy that up, and added the little "kerbs" to what would in truth be the inboard edges of the running plate above the coupled wheels. It would appear that on the A2/2s, which were supposed to be rebuilds using the maximum of original P2 parts, these kebs (and the sloping areas of plating plus sunken splashers behind them, which I've not modelled) continued to extend well forwards, almost as if the no-longer-present leading set of coupled wheels was still in place.

As these comparitive pictures of tenders show, my narrowed and tidied-up Bachmann A4 tender has a body that is a mil or two longer than scale, this shows up directly alongside the Bachmann A2 tender and my also-modified Hornby tender for Great Northern. The A4 front plate isn't as detailed or well-fitted-out and the details such as steps and lamp-irons on the rear are a bit heavier compared to the others too. The copings are of the still fairly wide 1938-ish style, and are moulded "solid" rather than with space beneath. Also the water filler is a bit large. BUT, even with the extra length I think this body would go on a Hornby underframe, which can be had as a spare, and would look okay as its features are basically sound. In fact the loss of gap between the cab rear edge and the sidesheet, even when the tender is no more closely coupled than any other, might help to disguise the allowances we have to make for our tighter curves.

The points I'm really coming to regarding this tender body are these:
1. I know that one of our number is currently making efforts to produce resin facsimilies of even better versions of some LNER 8 wheel tender bodies, so I don't want to wade in with any resin casting plans of my own just yet. If however his work turns out not to be viable we could do with something.
2. I've modified this body a great deal and it was a very old pattern of moulding so I don't consider that I'd be doing much to "steal intellectual property" or plagiarise the work of others if I made some copies.
3. Once the handrails plus the standards for the handbrake and water scoop are carefully removed from the body it is a simple one-piece moulding and ought to be very easy to replicate in resin.
4. I think it is adaptable, especially if you are either prepared to turn a blind eye to broad copings or are willing to cut out the coal load (and water filler area if necessary) so as to trim back the copings and then fit new innards to your tastes. It seems to me for instance that if you;
a) Add beadings it's a new-type non corridor altered to run with an A4.
b) Add beadings and trim back the fairings, lower the front plate by a couple of mil and
it's and original new-type non corridor.
c) Just trim back the fairings and lower the front and it's a flush-finished s/l n/c as
running after 1948 with A1 / A2 / A3 classes.

Time will tell.

[mick b]

Silver Boiler bands !! a undercover Hush Hush !!

Is the Garter Blue tender a Railroad version ?

[will5210]

Very nice! Loving the Silver Fox style boiler bands!!

edit Mick beat me to it!

[Atlantic 3279]

The boiler bands are like that purely because I made them from aluminium tape, having had an annoying long term problem with PVC tape on the K3 I made some years ago - the boiler bands eventually went wrinkly / baggy. For reasons I shall explain further when I put up the notes to go with the above pictures, the tender is from my Bachmann A4 but with narrowed body, straightened leading edges to the sidesheets and an altered front bulkhead to produce the non-corridor streamlined type as running in the years immediately after 1938. It isn't right for a late 1950s 60503/60504 just as it stands, but it is the ONLY flush rivetted s/l n/c tender I have!

[mick b]

Yes Graeme, I have similar problem with finding a Non Corridor non streamlined version as in the pictures above !!