Ashburton Grove

[StevieG]

Indeed a lovely photo, thanks

So presumably these stock moves in the Down direction from Drayton Pk would have involved three reversals to get onto the Down Canonbury around Ashburton Grove? First reversing in the Up platform at Drayton Pk, then to use the connection up the slope into the sidings at the north end of Highbury Vale Goods depot, then back through the sidings to the Up Canonbury, then reversing again on the Up Canonbury to cross over to the Down Canonbury... is that correct?

Spot on lemmo : Well I never saw it done, but I can't think of any other routeing.

[StevieG]

Re the picture linked-to by R.Pike two days ago : Oh yes, a great photo discovery indeed : In the same collection, the pic of another such train (the same one? - the loco is L21 again) up at No.7 box is also a good one, although I think I may have seen it somewhere before : It's interesting though, as it's on the Up line, and L21 is at the 'north' [Highgate] end [not sure in which direction it's going], and I can't see another loco at the other end. It could be the same train as at Ashburton Grove, having crossed over, Down to Up, at No.7, and seen setting off 'wrong line' to Highgate [In the final years of the FP No.7 - Highgate section, operation was by Single Line Working after the Down road was blocked by erection of an emergency support to the road overbridge at Crouch End station.]

First, a bit of orientation and other detail, in case anyone can't quite place the location:

The train is on the Down Canonbury Passenger line (used by various traffic including suburban services from Broad Street), and is approaching Ashburton Grove signal box (which did not control this line) and the 2-span, 4-track underbridge (ECML No.12) under the main line about halfway between Holloway and Finsbury Park.
The track to the right of the train is the Up Canonbury Goods line (also not controlled by AG box despite being right behind the box), used by any trains from Fins.Park No.2 box (beside FP [unofficially 'Clarence Yard'] Diesel Depot), from either the Holloway direction (including KX Goods Yard) or FP Western Sidings, and heading for Broad Street, Poplar, Stratford, Temple Mills or other points east and south therefrom. The Down Canonbury Goods to which Micky has referred is out-of-shot, further right.

All the easily visible signals belong to Finsbury Park No.1 box : The high, lattice bracket signal in middle ground is its Homes on the Up East Goods line (the incline down from East Goods Yard : The main, full-size arm reading to the Up Canonbury line and onward to Canonbury Jn., Western Jn.[Dalston], etc. : The miniature arm read into the reversing/run-round loop sidings between the Up & Down Can'bys.); the similar concrete-post signal far right is No.1's equivalent signals for the Up Canonbury Goods, to which the (fixed at Caution) Distant signal prominent in the foreground applies.
The main arm of the equivalent signals for the Up Canonbury Passenger line (from Fins.Park station's Up side [No.4 box] ) is also visible just above the first carriage of the 'Tube' stock.
In the background, to the far right, can just be seen the backs of No.1's twin-arm Down Canonbury line Second Homes, with No.1 box itself just to the right of them.

Now,

Back to ASHBURTON GROVE and a minor signalling query?.

Why wasn't a distant signal provided for Ashburton Grove's down goods line home signal (no.3) underneath Finsbury Park no.1s Down Cannonbury line to Down goods line home signal (no.54).
(Granted that on the existing bracket post at Finsbury Park no.1 there wasn't enough room to mount a distant signal underneath the home signal but thats by the by?).

I surmise that it was a combination of the following reasons-

1.It was a very short block-section between Finsbury Park no.1 & Ashburton Gove s/boxes?.

2.It appeared to be a very 'low speed route' maybe only 10-15 mph between both s/boxes?.

3.Ashburton Grove's down goods line home signal (no.3) could be 'clearly seen' before passing Finsbury Park no.1 s/box?.

4.Was not thought required for the above reasons by the G.N.R. signalling department?.

Any other suggestions?

The height of the DC-DCG Home doll should not have precluded the fitting of a lower Distant arm if it was warranted: both dolls would just have had to have been made higher.

I think any, several, or even all the reasons you quote Micky could have been factors in there physically being no Distant arm, but plus the definite fact that Ashburton's yellow levers existed, and worked what were termed "Distant indicators" - one in Fins.Pk.1 for the Down Canonbury Goods, and in Fins.Pk. 2 box, two for the UCG (one for each route, including for the miniature-arm 'Home's facing route straight into AG sidings!).
As regards how these arrangements worked, I don't actually know, but suspect that, with an AG Dist.ind'r showing 'OFF' in either FP 1 or 2 boxes, the signalman there was perhaps allowed to pull straight off for a train to the relevant CG line, that was booked to go there. But if, after AG had accepted a booked train, it became time to pull off but the Dist.ind'r still showed 'ON', then maybe the FP 1 or 2 signalman had to apply Rule 39 (holding a stop signal at Danger 'until the train was quite or nearly at a stand at it').
Given the short distances between, and the adequate-for-speeds sighting of, the boxes' Home signals etc., I think this would have been a safe means of working, and the absence of a Distant arm to reinforce the 'message' would've been unnecessary, though admittedly unusual in general.
But I say, this is all conjecture.

One exception to my theory might have applied to Up trains going to the Up Carriage line ('the Creep-Up') at Ash.Gro. box (heading for Holloway and onwards), and that is, that given how steep the 'creep-up' was, No.2 box may have been required to hold back on trains (possibly apart from light engines) going that way until AG's Dist.ind'r for the U.Carr. was 'OFF', so that the risk of having to restart from being stopped by the underbridge at AG's Homes and then stalling on the creep-up was avoided, but all that's also guesswork.

Note; just by the UCG Distant signal post, a single lever with rod leading away which probably operated a fogsignalman's detonator-placer several yards away, along with the GN-style fogman's signal repeater, and the adjacent hut, probably also for fogmen's use. I would hazard a guess that the det.-placer was for No.1 box's Down Can. Passr. line starter bracket signal with No.3 box's three Distant arms for the same line below it (as well as not being controlled by AG box, this line wasn't worked by FP No.2 box either), out-of-shot to the left, near, or just behind, the photographer and hard by the bridge under the main line.

[ Edited at 10:33 10/01/13, to add additional details : And, belatedly, on 07/Aug./'13 for spelling errors.]

[Mickey]

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[strang steel]

I know this is not the official thread for staff particulars, but as Finsbury Park has been mentioned regularly here I thought it would be a logical place for the October 1939 signal box staff record.

Are any of these names familiar to anyone?


Finsbury Park No1

Albert Dalby b 1/12/1898 - entered service -/12/1914 - pay £3 15s per week

George Cranston b 12/1/1898 - entered service 18/11/1914 - pay £3 15s per week

Harold C. C. Waller b 25/3/1896 - entered service 26/12/1912 - pay £3 15s per week


Finsbury Park No3

Geoffrey Thomas Parlett b 6/6/1883 - entered service 19/1/1900 - pay £3 15s per week

William John Holland b 10/9/1884 - entered service 11/5/1899 - pay £3 15s per week

Charles Thomas Goddard b 11/9/1887 - entered service -/-/1907 - pay £3 15s per week


Finsbury Park No4

Harry Chivers b 1/1/1883 - entered service 7/10/1897 - pay £3 15s per week

Charles William Pape b 29/9/1881 - entered service 4/10/1901 - pay £3 15s per week

William Taylor b 8/7/1880 - entered service 8/7/1904 - pay £3 15s per week


Finsbury Park No5

Arthur Nicholls b 1/6/1884 - entered service 12/2/1900 - pay £3 15s per week

William George Porter b 7/4/1884 - entered service 23/3/1899 - pay £3 15s per week

Eric William B. Collin b 15/5/1893 - entered service 7/1/1908 - pay £3 15s per week


Finsbury Park No6

Frederick William Langshaw b 1/6/1889 - entered service 4/2/1904 - pay £3 15s per week

Newton A. Gudgin b 3/10/1889 - entered service 1/11/1907 - pay £3 15s per week

William James Bagley b 31/10/1875 - entered service 10/7/1894 - pay £3 15s per week


Finsbury Park No7

Charles Robert Allen b 11/3/1904 - entered service -/9/1918 - pay £3 per week

Willie White b 24/8/1880 - entered service 3/12/1902 - pay £3 per week

Arthur J Walby b 22/12/1906 - entered service 4/8/1924 - pay £3 per week

[StevieG]

Thank you ss.

Harold Waller (FP No.1): There was a Bob Waller around in the mid-1970s (a senior Controller: - previously a highly-graded relief signalman definitely covering the Holloway area; and probably others : No idea if they might've been related though.

Arthur Walby (FP No.7): Pretty sure there was a signalman of that name at FP No.4 box in the late 1960s : Quite feasible to have been the same person on a likely 45 - 50-ish years' service basis.

[Mickey]

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[strang steel]

Excellent stuff Micky.

We can build up a picture of signal box staff on the southern ECML. I will see if I can find other returns for suburban boxes.

Meanwhile,


Finsbury Park Telegraph Lads October 1939

Albert Thomas Coe b 9/5/1920 - entered service 13/5/1935 - pay £1 15s per week

Sidney Jacobs b 26/2/1921 - entered service -/-/---- - pay £1 10s per week

George Alfred Taylor b 18/11/1919 - entered service -/12/1936 - pay £1 15s per week

Thomas Smith b 7/11/1922 - entered service --/-/---- - pay £1 per week

Arthur W Grimes b 17/3/1920 - entered service 14/2/1938 - pay £1 15s per week

Frederick Berry b 2/4/1920 - entered service 7/5/1934 - pay £1 15s per week

Dennis G Yerrell b 15/10/1920 - entered service -/2/1935 - pay £1 15s per week

Reginald V Attwood b 23/8/1920 - entered service 5/7/1937 - pay £1 15s per week

Arthur Frank Wolfe b 27/3/1920 - entered service 1/10/1934 - pay £1 15s per week

James S Sykes b 16/4/1920 - entered service 11/2/1935 - pay £1 15s per week


Edited to add, that Richard may get a bit irritated that I am not posting these staff details in the section dedicated to LNER People, so in future I will do so with an appropriate message heading.

[Mickey]

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[StevieG]

Finsbury Park Telegraph lads October 1939

Albert Thomas Coe b 9/5/1920 - entered service 13/5/1935 - pay £1 15s per week.

I presume this is the same Albert Coe that i previously mentioned as being a regular signalman at Finsbury Park no.3 during the 1960s & early 1970s?.

Also there is mention of a signalman Albert T.Coe at Kings Cross PSB in the official accident report on the accident at Hertford north in 1978.

A.C. at FP3 and KX PSB - same person. Was also at FP 'Porta' panel box in between, and Hatfield 3 before FP3.

[hegenscheidt]

Hello there...

I have been reading this long thread with interest. I'm really interested to find out more about the 'Ashburton Grove Pullman' rubbish train. Partly because I live near the old Hertford line and remember playing on the crossing gates in the early 70's (they were out of use by then), but also because I'm trying to find out more about the trains which ran to the Holwell Hyde landfill dump site on the Hertford line (Now the Cole Green Way cycle path).

If any of you gentlemen know anything more about these trains which ran on the Hertford branch it would be great to learn more about it. Does anyone know roughly when they operated from and to? Roughly how many trains a week and how many rubbish wagons were typically hauled? And anything else relating to it, that isn't mentioned on the forum already. There is a proposal to build houses on the old dump now, despite the fact that it took London's rubbish for about 70 years, as far as I can tell. I've been able to find out more about the Blackbridge dump site on the Luton branch, including the article in Railway World article from 1970, but the rubbish train operations on the Hertford line seem to be less documented. Has anybody got anything stored in their memory banks?

For my sins I did work in the Hornsey EMU depot in the BR days, but don't hold that against me.

Will.

[Hatfield Shed]

I lived in WGC very near the Hertford branch (The Commons) late fifties until it was closed and lifted, and do not recall any rail traffic going to deposit waste at the Holwell Hyde quarry pits. The waste there was always trucked in to the best of my knowledge, and only lovely home grown Hertfordshire stuff, rather than the vile outpourings of the Great Wen! The London waste as is well known went to Blackbridge, (and I do remember the wet day that one such 'stink train' slipped to a stand behind a friend's house and the rats jumping off) but if I am incorrect in the belief that Blackbridge was the exclusive London waste destination I am sure someone will put me right.

Rail freight was still delivered into the sixties on the 'industrial area' stub of the Hertford branch, some of it crossing Ridgeway to the tar paper works and finally after the Ridgeway crossing was eliminated only to Nortons. The Norton empties could be rolled around at night by naughty teens; surely I didn't do such a thing. I well remember the brave driver taking a class 31 over the Bessemer road bridge in the late 70s when the track was (mostly) lifted. Some of the siding track off the branch is still buried beneath asphalt and concrete East of Bessemer Road bridge. A 31 derailed some days later on the curve connecting to the ECML between what were then the ICI and Rank Xerox sites, the sleepers were rotten and the track spread. All the branch gone now and in use as a road on what are currently industrial estates, although here yet further change is now proposed.

[EddieBN]

I was Tele/lad at New Barnet North (1962 on) and remember this train. Coming down from Ashburton Grove, I think Monday's to Friday's only, running as train number 1122 as a class "H" (bell code 1-4) always more or less at the same time 07.15, and always heading for Blackbridge Sidings on the Luton Branch as far as I know. The trains were made up of about 8-10 loose coupled bogie wagons , someone said maybe ex brick wagons, the contents being sheeted over with tarpaulins (they still left a trail of rubbish behind!) and in steam days nearly always hauled by WD 2-8-0's.

Eddie

[Mickey]

Rail freight was still delivered into the sixties on the 'industrial area' stub of the Hertford branch, some of it crossing Ridgeway to the tar paper works and finally after the Ridgeway crossing was eliminated only to Nortons. The Norton empties could be rolled around at night by naughty teens; surely I didn't do such a thing. I well remember the brave driver taking a class 31 over the Bessemer road bridge in the late 70s when the track was (mostly) lifted. Some of the siding track off the branch is still buried beneath asphalt and concrete East of Bessemer Road bridge. A 31 derailed some days later on the curve connecting to the ECML between what were then the ICI and Rank Xerox sites, the sleepers were rotten and the track spread. All the branch gone now and in use as a road on what are currently industrial estates, although here yet further change is now proposed.

Yes i also knew it well especially the length between The Ridgeway level crossing and the Holwell Hyde level crossing between 1966-1974 and as Hatfield Shed points out the waste rubbish was brought in by road vehicles and if you carried on walking passed Holwell Hyde level crossing and walked another 2 or 3 hundred yards further on along the straight length of railway track towards Cole Green station direction you could start to smell the waste rubbish in the open air plus you would also see and hear the seagulls flying around the rubbish tip all the time as well.

The single line track was lifted around 1967 because i well remember walking along the old track to Holwell Hyde level crossing keeper's house (the house is still there to this day as a private residents) sometime in 1967 and the track was cut up into short lengths waiting to be lifted. Holwell Hyde and The Ridgeway level crossing gates remained insitu well into the 1970s even though the single line track was cut back and ended at a set of buffer stops near towhere the old Attimore halt use to be about 200 yards northwest of The Ridgeway level crossing just opposite the Lincoln Electrics factory and infact both sets of level crossing gates were still there in 1974 although the single line track had been lifted back in 1967.

Around 1970/71 building work commenced in the area of the old track bed several hundred yards on the approach side to Holwell Hyde level crossing it was several low rise buildings that were constructed from memory although on a return visit to the area in 2008 many more houses have been built in the meantime along the Black Fan Road the road that ran parallel to the railway for part of the way back towards WGC station direction before the road turned off towards the Attimore & Panshanger areas.

The last documented train to use the Hertford branch was a Brush class 31 loco that travelled light engine from WGC station to Norton's sidings to pick up the last few remaining wagons left in the sidings and then returned with them back to WGC Up yard that was in November 1981 and soon after that the remaining track on the Hertford branch was lifted from Norton's sidings back to WGC station area which was approximately about 1 mile in length.

Mickey

[Hatfield Shed]

It was as late as '81 that the track of the remaining 'industrial area stub' of the Hertford branch was finally lifted. I wasn't keeping notes at the time - much too busy with career - but the few days of operation of this loco on the branch, and the clonking about of track panel lifting and movement caused enough vibration to upset the functioning of some sensitive instrumentation in an adjacent manufacturing facility.

Which is the only reason why I knew it was happening. My work life at the time was dominated by 12+ hour days within windowless facilities. Went for a chat with the fellow who was running the track lifting team to find out the expected duration - fortunately brief - and returned to my enclosed existence. (We ran the affected instrumentation at night only for that short period.)

I ... The trains were made up of about 8-10 loose coupled bogie wagons , someone said maybe ex brick wagons, the contents being sheeted over with tarpaulins (they still left a trail of rubbish behind!)

One bogie wagon type that was definitely used were the bogie 'Sulphate' wagons LNER dia 69. As these were scrapped they were replaced by - often very battered - 16T steel minerals of varied types, I suspect BR clearing out the various earlier and variant builds so that the coal hauls were operated by mostly Dia.1/108.

[Mickey]

It was as late as '81 that the track of the remaining 'industrial area stub' of the Hertford branch was finally lifted. I wasn't keeping notes at the time - much too busy with career - but the few days of operation of this loco on the branch, and the clonking about of track panel lifting and movement caused enough vibration to upset the functioning of some sensitive instrumentation in an adjacent manufacturing facility.

Which is the only reason why I knew it was happening. My work life at the time was dominated by 12+ hour days within windowless facilities. Went for a chat with the fellow who was running the track lifting team to find out the expected duration - fortunately brief - and returned to my enclosed existence. (We ran the affected instrumentation at night only for that short period.)

I presume the buildings that you was working in Hatfield Shed were the lowrise buildings set back from the railway on the curve leading around from the main lines and ending or commencing at the Bessemer road overbridge where there was also a un-gated foot crossing over the Hertford branch at this spot to gain access to the buildings and i believe there was also a small security office with a 24hrs guard on duty as well i recall?. Anyway i use to occasionally walk along the Hertford branch from the Lincoln Electrics sidings at Attimore then pass by Nortons sidings and then over the Twein & Bessemer road overbridges on my way to WGC station s/box where i worked as a telegraph lad between 1972-74.

Just as a matter of interest the Twein road bridge (about 200 yards east of the Bessemer road bridge) there was a small WW2 concrete pill box that guarded the bridge i don't know if you was aware of it Hatfield Shed it was quite low down and not to easy to spot unless you was walking along the railway?.

This topic should really be posted on the 'Welwyn Garden City Sidings' topic thread that has posts on this subject of the Hertford branch line.

Mickey