Welwyn Garden City

[Mickey]

When i was at Victoria Park s/box in 1980 we had a single line to & from Poplar Docks that was worked on the ONE ENGINE IN STEAM regulations and they were still referred to as that at that time. Also the single line token was a ANNETTS KEY that also operated a GF (Ground Frame) at Old Ford that the train crew operated to enter the single line proper (after running round there train) and once on the single line they then 'locked themselves in' on the single line.

Back to WGC i was always a bit more interested in how the signalling worked with regards to the Hertford branch?.

Was the Holwell Hyde level crossing keeper informed by telephone by either the WGC or Cole Green signalman (or Hertford north s/box from 1951 when Cole Green s/box was reduced to a GF status) when a train was to travel over the branch in either direction i presume he was?.

[StevieG]

Sorry Micky, no idea.

[Mickey]

Thats ok Stevie, i'm interested in the Hertford branch although there isn't to much on it other then the information on the disused stations website and in the Middleton Press series of books.

If anyone's got any photographs of the Hertford branch especially the section from WGC station to Holwell Hyde level crossing including Attimore Hall level crossing (known locally as the Ridgeway) and Lincoln Electrics and Norton Abrasives sidings up to and after closure of the branch to freight traffic in 1966 and during the 1970s up to final closure of the short-section of the Hertford branch that was left between WGC and Norton Abrasives sidings in November 1981 i would be very interested in seeing them thanks.

[StevieG]

I remember seeing, round by Norton's at WGC, the tall-ish post of the branch Down starter (74?), and a bit further away, the shorter post of the Up First home (83?), both concrete, for at least 10 years from about 1969.

As well as the crossings you mentioned Micky, wasn't there a crossing (or siding?) called Birchall? - sure I saw that name somewhere: Perhaps on a 'bus 'phone circuit card.

[Mickey]

Yes you are correct Stevie about the x2 concrete L.N.E.R. signal posts (minus there signal arms) still being there opposite Norton Abrasives sidings circa 1969 and for a number of years into the 1970s plus also there was a medium size L.N.E.R. concrete post that carried WGC up 'fixed' distant signal (minus the distant signal arm) opposite a set of sidings called the GKN factory sidings still being in situ in 1974 (it may have lasted longer then 1974 but i never walked the Hertford branch after 1974?) the GKN sidings were accessed by a set of hand-points.

The line beyond the x3 road GKN factory sidings went on for a short distance a long the single line for several hundred yards before reaching a single set of hand-points that lead into the Lincoln Electrics siding. Continuing a long the single line of the Hertford branch this ended a couple of hundred yards further a long at a set of stops from about 1967 onwards near towhere Attimore Hall halt use to be. A couple of hundred yards beyond where the single line ended at the stops was the Ridgeway level crossing & gates which stood there redundant for a number of years into the 1970s atleast up to 1974.

* * * Correction from my previous post on this subject i may have mixed up the GKN sidings with the Norton Abrasives sidings sorry guy's. * * *

[Gra]

when a train of rubbish empties came back from Blackbridge sidings the telegraph lad would come down the box steps and collect the single line token from the secondman.

All interesting stuff this. Once the bi-directional line to Hatfield was no longer used how did the train get back on to the up line from No1 platform?

Graham

[Gra]

Here's a nice pic of the rubbish train at Hadley Wood in 1966.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/52467480@N ... otostream/

[Mickey]

when a train of rubbish empties came back from Blackbridge sidings the telegraph lad would come down the box steps and collect the single line token from the secondman.

All interesting stuff this. Once the bi-directional line to Hatfield was no longer used how did the train get back on to the up line from No1 platform?

Graham

The empty rubbish train would arrive in platform no.1 locos leading heading south (usually it was either worked by x2 class 31s or x2 Paxmans - platform no.1 is nowadays platform no.4) before the signalman signals the train out of platform no.1 and out onto the down slow line he would have to send 'blocking back inside home signal' (2-4 bell) to Hatfield no.3 s/box and get it acknowledged and then peg the block indicator/needle to TRAIN ON LINE afterwhich the signalman would be in a position to signal the train out of platform no.1 and out on to the down slow line as far as the LIMIT OF SHUNT board which was inside the WGC outter home signal and stop the rubbish train a couple of hundred yards north from the 20th Mile overbridge.

The road would then be re-set by the signalman a long the down slow line through the down slow line platform with the points outside the s/box being reversed from down slow/down goods line to down main line then the down slow line inner home signal (no.9) and the search light colour light signal (no.10) with the feathers (button B) on the end of the down slow line platform would be both cleared. The rubbish train empties would then be 'propelled back' a long the down slow line through the down slow line platform passed the s/box and out onto the down main line and then stop just passed/underneath the Hunter's road overbridge behind a ground disc-signal, the signalman would then give the 2-1 bell Obstruction removed and get it acknowledged by Hatfield no.3 s/box before 'dropping the needle' on the down slow line block indicator back to LINE BLOCKED.

Then when the signalman was in a position to 'get the train moving' he would get it accepted 'on the block' by Hatfield no.2 s/box reverse the main to main crossover and clear the ground disc-signal (or dolley) and the up fast line starting signal (no.32 signal up near the 20th Mile overbridge) and usually give the rubbish train empties a run up the fast line towards Hatfield.

Sorry guy's i didn't want to get into the technical side of having to 'blocking back' to Hatfield no.3 s/box but once you start this stuff it takes over!.

[Gra]

Wow, Micky, what a great reply! Even I, who knows nothing about signaling can understand what you mean. I assume the inner home signal No9 is the one just to the south of platform 2 and the search light colour light signal (no.10) with the feathers is the one by the signal box. Isn't that a single aspect signal and aren't they always set to red. Could you please explain a little about this signal please.

Graham

[Mickey]

Wow, Micky, what a great reply! Even I, who knows nothing about signaling can understand what you mean. I assume the inner home signal No9 is the one just to the south of platform 2 and the search light colour light signal (no.10) with the feathers is the one by the signal box. Isn't that a single aspect signal and aren't they always set to red. Could you please explain a little about this signal please.

Graham

At this point i must say over to you Stevie.

In a nutshell yes no.9 signal was situated at the south end of WGC station and was the down slow line inner home signal mounted on a bracket post with no.4 down slow to down no.1 line platform (Luton line) signal on it.

The colour light signals were of L.N.E.R. design and worked inconjunction with the occupation of the berth track circuits 200 yards on the approach side to either the down fast or down slow line outter home signals no.22 (down fast line) & no.8 (down slow line) and the rest of the track circuits in the down fast & down slow lines on the approach side to both colour light signals.

Because both colour light signals worked inconjunction with the occupation of the track circuits thats why sometimes there would be NO light in either aspect of both colour light signals until either an approaching train on either the down fast line or the down slow line 'hit' the berth track circuit(s) 200 yards on either the approach side to either no.22 or no.8 signals (the approach side of the 20th Mile overbridge).

No.10 search light type signal (outside the s/box) in the down slow line was worked off lever no.10 inconjunction with either pressing button 'A' (straight down the goods line) or pressing button 'B' (down slow to down main line) of course the signalman had to operate the FPL (i think it was a clearence bar?) & points lever if he wanted to turn a train out from the down slow line platform to the down main line as well.

The x2 aspect colour light signal in the down fast line (outside the s/box) WASN'T worked off a lever but worked purely by the occupation of the track circuits in either the down fast or down slow lines, of course if a train was signalled down the fast line the signalman would have to clear nos.22, 23, 24 & 21 levers-

no.21 down fast line distant signal (colour light)
no.22 down fast line outter home signal (semaphore)
no.23 down fast line inner home signal (semaphore)
no.24 down main line starting signal (semaphore)

Also this colour light signal acted as Welwyn north's down main line outter colour light distant signal his down main line inner distant signal was a 'motor operated' semaphore signal mounted beneath WGC no.24 down main line starting signal.

[R. pike]

Are all the box diagrams still available upthread or shall i post them again?

[Mickey]

S/box track diagrams tell only part of the story to any s/box but to work a box like WGC was something else altogether.

The weekday 'morning peak' (07:00-09:30) wasn't to bad but the 'evening peak' (16:00-20:00) was 4hrs of non-stop lever bashing on the frame & block shelf!!.

As has been said before by those in the know WELWYN GARDEN CITY sorted the MEN out from the boy's!!!.

[StevieG]

Wow, Micky, what a great reply! Even I, who knows nothing about signaling can understand what you mean. I assume the inner home signal No9 is the one just to the south of platform 2 and the search light colour light signal (no.10) with the feathers is the one by the signal box. Isn't that a single aspect signal and aren't they always set to red. Could you please explain a little about this signal please.

Graham

" At this point i must say over to you Stevie. .... "

....To say what? I think you've covered virtually all of it anyway !

All I can think of to add is that when No.10 was cleared it would show, in a standard way for 3-aspect(indication) signals, yellow if the next signal was at Danger (horizontal red semaphore arm or colour-light showing red), and green if the next one was showing a proceed indication of some sort.
So, as per the routeings from 10 signal that Micky has described, when it was cleared for straight on from the Down Slow line (platform) to the Down Goods line to Digswell, the next signal was Welwyn North's Distant signal, which could not show Danger (Stop), so 10 cleared straight to green.
When cleared for a train to cross to the Down Main, it would show either yellow or green (dependent on whether No.24 Down Main Starting signal was at Danger or not), plus illumination of the 5-white light 'feather' junction indicator above it, positioned to the right at 45 degrees above horizontal.

The parallel Down Fast signal had two lenses, to make it a 4-aspect signal, because in addition to the colour aspects that No.10 could show, this one had to also be able to show 'double yellow' (2 Y's, one above the other: the 'Preliminary Caution' aspect), meaning 'be prepared to find the next signal showing 'Caution'. This was necessary in acting (as Micky has also said) as an Outer Distant for any of Welwyn North box's stop signals being at Danger. For this DF signal to show green, the Inner Distant semaphore under WGC No.24 also had to be clear (raised to 45 degrees), confirming that all of Welwyn North's signals were also at 'Clear'.

[Gra]

Are all the box diagrams still available upthread or shall i post them again?

All your fotopic links are no longer active, R.pike. I would be nice if they could be reactivated.

In the meantime I'm going to sit down and digest the two really useful posts by Micky and StevieG.

Thanks Guys.

Graham

[R. pike]

Here are a couple to start..