Welwyn Garden City

[StevieG]

" Hello Dave, that story reminds me of a signalman (sorry signaller?) on the North London line back in the mid-1990s that suggested in writing to management that because the NLL generally runs a long an east-west parallel from Stratford to Willesden and vice versa and because of a change in line designation from UP to DOWN and DOWN to UP lines at Camden Road wouldn't it be easier (for everyone?) just to call the road from Willesden to Stratford EASTBOUND and the road from Stratford to Willesden WESTBOUND?. I don't think anything came of this suggestion up until the time i left Camden Road s/box in 2004?. .... "

Do I remember vaguely Micky, that at some time when the state of the NLL was fairly static (1980s/90s-ish?), seeing some platforms at then 'simple' stations (e.g. Canonbury?) having platforms signs that read "E" and "W" instead of "1 "and "2"?

[Andy W]

If we can return to CT for a moment, I went to Mr Humms emporium at Stamford at the weekend and picked up a Section A freight WTT for winter 1968/9.

The trip workings in the back included the following;

Welwyn Garden City No 1 - 0600-2200 M-F, 0510-1400 SO - Goods Yard and Sidings Shunting.

Hatfield No 1 - 0500-1700 M-F, 0500-1200 SO - Trips to Potters Bar/Marshmoor and Return. Trips to Hill End/Fiddle Bridge and Return. 1000-1300 SX 1200 SO - Shunting at Hatfield as Reqd.

Hatfield No 2 - 2330 M-F to 0100 T-Sat - Place Ross Group Fish Traffic off 4B10. (note class 4 trains were not exclusively freightliners at that time - the classification system was revised subsequently)

Hatfield No 1 and No 2 would have been covered by the same loco and both the Welwyn and Hatfield shunters were Hitchin 350 turns.

In the WTT itself the Welwyn 350 would go as 0B04 to Hatfield at 1415 on the Saturday (arriving 1425), departing Hatfield as 0B00 at 0530 on the Monday morning (arriving back at CT at 0540). What was that all about - facilitating a swap over?

The evening Whitemoor previously mentioned was 5J41 (not an ECS - class 5 was a freight at this time) in this timetable and left at 1851. I have the other 1968 freight times at Welwyn ready to post if anybody is interested.

[Mickey]

The WGC 350hp diesel shunter or 'pilot' as it was known as use to go either to Finsbury Park or Hitchin MPDs to re-fuel?. I think it was probably Finsbury Park MPD come to think of it?.

Around 1970-74 as previously posted the WGC 'pilot' would on atleast one weekday morning head up the slow line to Hatfield to shunt the up sidings then return a couple of hours later on the down slow line and crossover back into the up yard. Also the WGC 'pilot' would make a trip down the Hertford branch atleast once a week to shunt Nortons and Lincoln Electrics sidings as well.

Yes the 'Whitemoor goods' use to depart WGC around 18:51hrs that time sounds familiar.

Again during the early/mid 1970s the weekday Temple Mills yard to WGC 'grain hoppers' (Shredded Wheat) use to arrive sometime after 05:00hrs at WGC (usually on the down slow line) and then be crossed over into the up yard, this train use to run as 8B07 and not as previously posted by myself as 7B07.

As previously posted during the early/mid-1970s a 7B66 use to depart Kings Cross Goods yard around 02:45hrs and arrive at WGC around 03:30hrs then crossover into the up yard and 'knock off' the brake van and 5-6 coal/coke wagons in the up yard before taking the front portion of the train of parcel vans forward northwards as 6B66 stopping at Hitchin down sidings and st Neots down sidings before arriving at Huntingdon sometime around 05:30hrs.

During 1968/69/70 there was still the Ashburton Grove to Blackbridge sidings 'rubbish trains' running and there return empty workings back to Ashburton Grove sidings worked either by double-headed Brush type 2s of double-headed Paxmans.

As previously mentioned about 2 years ago a Deltic hauling an assortment of about 25-30 B.R. parcel & GUV vans use to call at WGC on a Sunday tea-time on the up slow line platform to un-load & load parcels before continuing south on it's journey up to London sometime between 17:00-18:00hrs around 1969/70.

[pete2hogs]

I lived in WGC1979-81 and at that time there was still a length of the Hertford branch in place and it had a rake of bulk grains or coal hoppers stored near the end. Can't remember any more than that I'm afraid.

[Mickey]

I lived in WGC1979-81 and at that time there was still a length of the Hertford branch in place and it had a rake of bulk grains or coal hoppers stored near the end. Can't remember any more than that I'm afraid.

What was left of the Hertford branch between WGC station and Lincoln Electrics siding near Attimore Hall (buffer stop) was closed in November 1981 when a class 31 loco ventured a long the branch to pick up the last few remaining wagons from Norton Abrasives factory sidings and brought them back to WGC up yard afterwhich several weeks later the track was lifted.

The grey cast-iron overbridge that carried the Hertford branch high across Bessemer road in WGC still survives today although it now carries a tarmac road across it instead linking two small factory buildings either side of Bessemer road.

[Gra]

Hi Everyone

This is my first post on this thread and indeed this forum, although I have been looking in for quite some time now. Can I just say what a wonderful thread this is turning out to be; the information and detail that can be picked up is quite amazing and invaluable to someone like me that is about to start modelling WGC station.

I have fond memories of the station in the mid 1960's as a train spotter and then again in the 70's as a commuter into London, catching the 8.03 each morning. Most of my spotting time though was spent further up the line, by sandpit bridge. It was from there that I “discovered” the siding that manna was asking about back in October 2009. Some of the track was still in place although it was no longer connected to the up goods. It must have been out of use for quite some time as the were plenty of trees growing up between the sleepers. I recall some of the oldest sleeper chairs being marked as being produced in 1908. I did come across a map a while back showing 3 long roads and the buffer stops would have been where Chequers is now. If the track had kept going it would have gone right down the middle of Peartree Lane.

Hq1hitchin, you say they were called Smarts sidings. That's a name I don't recall hearing but you may well be right. I thought they belonged to Welwyn Transport Ltd and were used for the removal of sand and depositing of London's rubbish.

Whatever happened to sandpit bridge? It's not there now.

Graham

[Mickey]

I believe the Sandpit bridge or Sandhole bridge as it was also known by (going down road the bridge before the 20th mile bridge) was demolished prior to electrification in the mid-1970s because it only carried a dirt-track over the railway and wasn't worth the cost of replacing it.

Also if you are interested on infomation about WGC also read several other topic pages such as WGC s/box pre-September 1973 re-signalling, WGC s/box in 1972-73, WGC s/box 'the Luton frame' (these last 2 are currently on topic page 13) and WGC s/box NX panel 1973-76 as well.

[Gra]

I believe the Sandpit bridge or Sandhole bridge as it was also known by (going down road the bridge before the 20th mile bridge) was demolished prior to electrification in the mid-1970s because it only carried a dirt-track over the railway and wasn't worth the cost of replacing it.

Also if you are interested on infomation about WGC also read several other topic pages such as WGC s/box pre-September 1973 re-signalling, WGC s/box in 1972-73, WGC s/box 'the Luton frame' (these last 2 are currently on topic page 13) and WGC s/box NX panel 1973-76 as well.

Thanks for the tip, Micky; I'll take a look.

Graham

[Mickey]

No problem Graham glad to be of help also have a look on my visit to Woolmer Green s/box in August 1970 that was a good Saturday afternoon that was.

As well as the London area the Hatfield to Hitchin section of the G.N. main line back in the late 1960s & early 1970s was tops as far as i'm concerned.

p.s. Maybe the Hitchin to Peterborough section was a close second?.

[R. pike]

Don't, whatever you do, fully restore the ground frame without leaving the brakevan on the main...

[Mickey]

So with TC FK showing occupied that released the GF (Ground Frame) that seems an odd way to do it?.

So if you've got a train passing over TC FK or there was a 'track circuit failure' on that track circuit anyone could then operate the GF to Horns siding?.

Wasn't there an ANNETTS KEY to operate the GF in conjunction with the single line token?.

I guess it was a different time (the 1960s by the look at that diagram?) that 'set up' wouldn't be that acceptable in more recent years.

[StevieG]

" .... Hq1hitchin, you say they were called Smarts sidings. That's a name I don't recall hearing but you may well be right. I thought they belonged to Welwyn Transport Ltd and were used for the removal of sand and depositing of London's rubbish. .... "

I recall Smart's Siding being shown or mentioned officially somewhere, at, or to do with/referring to, either WGC or Hatfield No.2 signal box (at the south end of the Up Goods line section from WGC).
You may know that it's been far from unusual for the railways' operating department to continue using their name for such a facility long after the actual user company has changed.

Don't, whatever you do, fully restore the ground frame without leaving the brakevan on the main...

Horns Siding.jpg

Making that sort of mistake seems like just the sort of very occasional thing that could lead to some sort of unauthorised trick to get out of the stalemate, like possibly [not that I have any knowledge of any such method, or this location then (line closed before I was able to visit the area's 'boxes) ] 'acquiring' a PWay crowbar from somewhere and hiding it discretely nearby, so that if caught out like this, the bar could be put across the rails, and perhaps the fireman persuaded to sit on it if necessary, to perhaps succeed in causing the TC to drop so that the GF could be released.

" So with TC FK showing occupied that released the GF (Ground Frame) that seems an odd way to do it???.

So if TC FK was a 'track circuit failure' anyone could operate the GF to Horns siding??. .... "

Presumably yes, it could, although possibly only once if the GF release lever could only be operated once per each occasion that the TC went occupied*, needing the TC to clear, and then be occupied again before another release could be had?
It might be thought that such a release might only be possible after a signal has been cleared and put back before FK became occupied; and/or, that FK needed to be occupied for a set time before the GF release became effective, but the diagram doesn't go into such detail and I've no idea of the actual conditions required.
......* - [because, (only if) one of the GF levers was a release, or release + FPL, only, I'd expect the GF points to be operable back and forth as required without the release having to be normalised.]

" .... Wasn't there an ANNETTS KEY to operate the GF in conjunction with the single line token??. .... "

At the time of RP's box diagram photo, there wouldn't have been a token (or staff or tablet either), as (from sometime in the '50s? - perhaps when the Luton line loop was put in) the sections Hatfield 3 - WGC - Ayot became a form of tokenless (note the lower-case 't') block, with the sections fully track-circuited throughout and indicated at the boxes at both ends, and working between the boxes was then by special interlocked (electrically) instruments. [The Luton line Down starter signal at H3 carried a Notice Board which the box diagram stated, read "NON-TOKEN SECTION" (or similar) : Presumably the last Up signal(s?) at Ayot would've had the same.]

[Mickey]

Interesting Stevie, i never really knew to much about the single line to Luton because by the time i was at the s/box (1972-74) it was just part of a 'long siding' that ran from platform no.1 (Luton platform) passed the back of the box and ended out of sight from the box around a left-hand curve just beyond the Hunter's road overbridge at a set of stops.

A few years earlier (1968-70) the Blackbridge sidings rubbish trains were given a single line token to travel the branch to the rubbish tip at Blackbridge sidings because the telegraph lad was usually seen coming down the box steps when a rubbish train was coming through platform no.1 and then seen giving the secondman of these trains the token as the train passed the s/box. Likewise when a train of rubbish empties came back from Blackbridge sidings the telegraph lad would come down the box steps and collect the single line token from the secondman.

Ayot s/box closed in January 1966.

[R. pike]

There was a timer involved also, usually set around two minutes, to release the frame. I'll check the standard wiring diagram for a clearer method of working.

[StevieG]

Thanks RP.

When I first had visits inside WGC box Micky, the line still went as far as, and into, Blackbridge Siding for the rubbish trains, which were still running though I was never there when one came, Down or Up.
The Back Platform Line's track circuiting ended somewhere near the box, with the then north end of the plat. TC. There must have been a stopboard for Down Blackbridge trains there, instructing collection of the OES staff (that method hadn't been renamed OTW at that time), but of course passenger trains terminating there and shunting back out to the DS LOS board didn't have to worry about that.