LNER and ECJS vehicles on the Highland main line.

[uax6]

When I get round to it, I will be modelling the Highland Main Line in about the 1920-30's. As such I will need some LNER stock to put on the night sleepers.

I have been going through and scanning drawings from a friends stack of Model Railway Constructors, going back to the 60's, and have amassed a fair few drawings of LNER/ECJS sleepers, the problem being that they MRC drawings don't give the diagram numbers, just stock numbers, whereas in BACKTRACK's LMS edition there is an article on the Royal Highlander by P.Taplow which gives the diagram numbers for the stock used.

Is there a cross reference from diagram number to stock number anywhere please?

Examples: 1st class sleeper diagrams 17, 138, 157,227
3rd class sleeper diagrams 95, 109, 48
Compo sleeper diagrams 20, 160, 223. (I have the drawing for diag 20)
Full brake EJCS diag 39B
Convertable 3rd sleeper LNER 95
1st sleeper LNER 17
Locker compo LNER 8/116
Brake compo LNER 34

Any help would be appreaciated!

Andy Greening

[Saint Johnstoun]

There is a very good article in a Backtrack Special on the LMS in Scotland about the Royal Highlander and Sleeping Car trains. One forgets that in those days there was a choice of route South from Perth for passengers, unlike post-nationalisation when all Inverness passengers for the south were encouraged to head for Euston.

The other complication is that the train was split at Aviemore with one portion going via Forres and the other direct via Dava, and at different times, expressly in Summer, traffic dictated that the train was run from Perth as two portions.

Don't forget the ex Pullman restaurant cars either!

[Trestrol]

When I get round to it, I will be modelling the Highland Main Line in about the 1920-30's. As such I will need some LNER stock to put on the night sleepers.

I have been going through and scanning drawings from a friends stack of Model Railway Constructors, going back to the 60's, and have amassed a fair few drawings of LNER/ECJS sleepers, the problem being that they MRC drawings don't give the diagram numbers, just stock numbers, whereas in BACKTRACK's LMS edition there is an article on the Royal Highlander by P.Taplow which gives the diagram numbers for the stock used.

Is there a cross reference from diagram number to stock number anywhere please?

Examples: 1st class sleeper diagrams 17, 138, 157,227
3rd class sleeper diagrams 95, 109, 48
Compo sleeper diagrams 20, 160, 223. (I have the drawing for diag 20)
Full brake EJCS diag 39B
Convertable 3rd sleeper LNER 95
1st sleeper LNER 17
Locker compo LNER 8/116
Brake compo LNER 34

Any help would be appreaciated!

Andy Greening

Just noticed Dia 95 3rd sleepers are mentioned twice and a Dia 109 is also a convertable 3rd class sleeper as well the only difference between the two is the width over the body. Probably the LNERs first end vestibule coaches. A dia 109 number 1299 survives on the NYMR.

[John Palmer]

Is there a cross reference from diagram number to stock number anywhere please?

Examples: 1st class sleeper diagrams 17, 138, 157,227
3rd class sleeper diagrams 95, 109, 48
Compo sleeper diagrams 20, 160, 223. (I have the drawing for diag 20)
Full brake EJCS diag 39B
Convertable 3rd sleeper LNER 95
1st sleeper LNER 17
Locker compo LNER 8/116
Brake compo LNER 34

Let me attempt to match some numbers to diagrams. I've tried to supply 1925-43 numbering scheme numbers, but some errors may have slipped through. I've derived the information from Michael Harris' 'Gresley Coaches' and 'LNER Standard Gresley Carriages'.

SLF

Diag. 17:
1924: 1147/9, 1235/7,
1925: 1208-10/38/61/8/9
1927: 1316-9

Diag. 138:
1930: 1152-5

Diag. 157:
1932: 1156-7
1934: 1165-8
1935: 1211-4
1936: 1591-2

Diag. 227:
1937: 1593, 1673-7

SLT:

Diag. 95:
1928: 1241-56

Diag. 109:
1929: 1270-2/6-84, 1285-91
1930: 1296-1305

Diag. 148 (not 48):
1931: 1336-44/6

SLC:

Diag. 20:
1925: 1088-92
1926: 1093-7

Diag. 160:
1932: 32322 (Replacement for M&NBJS vehicle)

Diag. 223:
1937: 1594-6

BV:

ECJS Diag.39B:
1914: EC152-7, becoming 122/-/-/-126/127 (hyphens denote ‘war loss’)

CG:

Diag. 8:
1924: 1067-75
1926: 184/6/8/9

Diag. 116:
1928: 1292-4
1929: 121

BCKL:

Diag 34:
Too numerous to enumerate! Can you be a bit more specific?

My particular interest lies in the Fort William sleepers, and I'd thought that by the late 'thirties the sleeper portion consisted of nothing more than SLC plus BCKL. This little bit of research brought to my attention to the possible inclusion of a Diag. 95 SLT in the FW portion of the 'Highlandman' by 1937. Would welcome any additional light shed upon pre-war composition of West Highland sleeper services.

[2512silverfox]

For the period between 1923 and 1930 there is also a strong possibilty that pre group era sleepers were still being used on that route which opens up a completely fresh can of worms. Remember that unlike other corridor stock, sleepers were not generally cascaded but taken out of stock when replaced and most of the eliptical corridor stock from 1905 to 1923 lasted at least until 1928 and in many cases longer.

If you can put a definite timsclae on it, I will delve further. A lot of the vehicles you mention did not come intoservice until the mid/late 30s.

[uax6]

I'm modelling the HR section in the late 20's very early 30's, so I'm hoping that pre-grouping stock was about still (I love the look of the clerestory roofed ECJS vehicles) and there was still a fair amount of non-sleeping pre-group stock about (looking at the photos I have of the HR at that time).

I find it interesting that ECJS sleepers were available in 3rd class form, way before the West coast even thought about giving beds to 3rd class.

The list that John has posted is very useful, I'll be able to cross check to see what I have got now. Many thanks.

Andy Greening

[uax6]

Just had another thought here. Does anyone know what colour the blinds were in the sleeping cars ? It will be much easier to model with the blinds drawn ;-}

Andy G

[jwealleans]

Weren't at least some of them varnished teak?

[Trestrol]

[quote="uax6"]Just had another thought here. Does anyone know what colour the blinds were in the sleeping cars ? It will be much easier to model with the blinds drawn ;-}

GREEN! Third class that is. LNERCA had an interior shot of a third class convertable sleeper coloured by the aid of computers from a black and white photo. It appeared on the front of their newsletter.

[uax6]

Green, good ho! Do you know the colour of First Class per chance? Now off to check my drawings against the number above!

Thanks again

Andy G

[uax6]

Been through the MRC drawings and they only give ECJS numbering... Sorry!

The drawings I have are:
Brake third nos 265/6/7

Corr third nos 251/3/5
Corr third nos 11/12/13

Corr comp nos 346/8/9/50
Corr comp nos 17/8/20/1/2/5/8

Sleeper 1st nos 278/9, 276/7, 104/5/9, 117-9, 124/232/233/183-6
Sleeper 1st nos 235-238
Sleeper 1st nos 268/9

Comp sleeper nos 228-231
Comp sleeper nos 147/149

I have the diagram 20 LNER comp sleeper drawing, but the other LNER diagrams I have not.

Andy G

[2512silverfox]

The most common LNER and some Joint stock are covered in 4mm in Historic Carriage Drawings Vol 1 which should still be available.

I do remember Green blinds in first class sleepers when I used them often in 1947/8.

[sawdust]

Just had another thought here. Does anyone know what colour the blinds were in the sleeping cars ? It will be much easier to model with the blinds drawn ;-}

GREEN! Third class that is. LNERCA had an interior shot of a third class convertable sleeper coloured by the aid of computers from a black and white photo. It appeared on the front of their newsletter.

There are various pattern books in the NRM, dating from mid to late 30's. These all have double sided blinds. The side facing the exterior on all the samples matches the exterior body colour. For example teak brown for 1938 Flying Scotsman, silver for Silver Jubilee and pale blue for Coronation and West Riding Limited.

Sawdust.

[Trestrol]

On Sunday i sat and watched "oh Mr Porter" on DVD. There is quite a good shot of some first class blinds at the start although they are on a suburban. I wouldn't have thought there would be much difference.

[Stirling Single]

Ken Hoole (1993), The Illustrated History of East Coast Joint Stock, ISBN 0860934306

This may help plenty of drawings in here excellent book might I add.