Ashburton Grove

[Mickey]

Interesting Stevie.

[StevieG]

This site has some pictures but i can't get them to enlarge..

http://overground.doeth.net/heights/

on trying a double-click on the first couple of photos, they did work for me, each opening up at a fair size in a new window, but it seemed to take quite a while, up to 30 seconds perhaps.

Regarding the interior shots of No.7 box in that site, it will be noted that all the details on the track diagram seem concentrated at its left-hand end ....
No doubt because the rest of the information that stretched through to the right-hand end had been removed : In the early 1930's the line from here through to Park Junction box (Highgate) was resignalled by the LNER introducing 3 & 4-aspect colour-light signalling with Track Circuit Block working, closing the boxes at Stroud Green, Crouch End, Archway and Highgate, and necessitating a long track diagram; - Perhaps a precursor to the mentioned-in-the-past planned, never realised, use of this route section as part of the only partially completed '1935-1940 New Works Scheme' that would have included Northern Line UndergrounD train services from/to Moorgate (Northern City line) being extended from Drayton Park up to Finsbury Park (main-line level) and on over all the GN's 'Northern Heights' branches, to High Barnet/Edgware (via Mill Hill East)/Alexandra Palace.

But then again, with the NCL signalled to the London Transport system and standards, and no doubt the same would have supplanted the GN signalling on all of these lines north of Highgate (and by around 1941, did so, Park Junction - High Barnet/Mill Hill East), it seems likely that the Finsbury Park - Park Junction section would also have been ceded (operationally at least) to LT, and they would probably have wanted to resignal to their own standards(?) for consistency. So that would have made the LNER's modern signalling of no more than about eight years earlier, completely redundant !?

Returning to the track diagram in the above-mentioned website/photo, the three track circuit indication lights will be noted as being illuminated. Yet there would've probably been no trains around at the time, as was the case when I was once able to visit the box while unmanned.
This diagram's indication arrangements seem to have been a rare (IMHO) survivor of the ultimate 'fail-safe' in illuminated diagrams; - the track circuits were lit when clear, going out when occupied. Thus any failure of both bulbs of an indication resulted in an occupied indication as far as the signalman was concerned, just as if the track circuit itself was genuinely occupied by the presence of a train or vehicles, or had failed.
I only saw one other LNER diagram operating this way as late as 1970 - the long one at Neasden South box (GC).

[Mickey]

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[StevieG]

Sounds right Micky, with the up direction part of the move going through the station, down ('on the Up' ) to No.1 box on the Canonbury line, then backing into Highbury Vale/Gillespie Road sidings (I never remember which part of those up sidings was which), then forward again down the the slope (after the ground frame had been operated that took a derailer off the line; and where the 3rd & 4th rails also commenced) under the GN into Drayton Park southbound platform.

Signalling-wise the last working method between FP7 and Highgate (apart from the latter 'permanent' single-line working after a support for a weakening overbridge at Crouch End had to be put up in the other line) that I saw and knew of, was by "No Block" Regs. : FP7's last Down signal had been made a permanent red and trains went beyond on authority of a position-light signal below it, and the Up stop signal(s?) was preceded by a colour-light made a permanent yellow (had probably previously been the last Automatic signal).

No.7 was a funny little place; the box didn't look exceptionally small, but IIRC, there was only a 12-lever frame inside; and it was of an uncommon type as well (levers had McKenzie & H.-ish flat tops but the levers leant towards the windows when Normal, not vertical, and I think their pitch (spacing) was rather wide : At least 4.5", quite possibly 5".

[ Edit: Regarding Finsbury Park No.7 box's Up line stop signals; on reflection I feel more certain that there were two : a colour-light First Home capable of 3 aspects (No.8 I think) and a semaphore Second Home (7?) near the box, with a fixed Distant for No.6 box beneath it.

[StevieG]

This site has some pictures but i can't get them to enlarge..

http://overground.doeth.net/heights/

Re; the external photos around Finsbury Park No.7 box, as has been mentioned, the evidence of the removed line is of the old (up) Carriage line from there (connecting only out of the Down line) across the flyover above the main line (where it was the second track, paralleling the "Up Branch" road) continuing in the same way down the curve round the outside of Finsbury Park Carriage Sidings, to No.6 box where it trailed into the connections from the sidings into the up Branch platform (the old No.1) of the station.
The two sets of points in the Down line at No.7 which became facing to movements reversing to the 'Carriage' both had facing point locks, the line had been worked by permissive block to No.6, and ECS going this way were allowed to propel round and down to No.6, presumably continuing into the platform when clear before drawing forward into the sidings.

[StevieG]

" .... For those that weren't around when ASHBURTON GROVE was there the box use to be 'switched out' a lot of the times and was usually only open Monday-Friday between 6:am-6:pm although i am not sure if it was sometimes open between 10:pm-6:am??. .... "

Micky, i have had a look through a WTT of 1962. the box hours at Finsbury Pk were as follows.
1. Finsbury Pk No1, 8.30 pm Sunday to 6.0 am Sunday.Sunday 10.0 am for passage of 2Z91.
2. Ashburton Grove, 5.30 am to 8.10 pm weekdays. Sundays as arranged by the yardmaster.
3. Finsbury Pk No2, 10.0 pm Sunday to 6.0 am Sunday.
4. Finsbury Pk No 3,4,5,6 Continuously.
5. Finsbury Pk No 7, 6.0 am to 8.40 pm weekdays.

Hope this helps.

Micky, I've just re-discovered a BR(ER) KX Division circular I have; K.5557, HOURS OF OPENING OF SIGNAL BOXES, Mon. 19th May 1969.
This gives :
FP1 - 22.00 Sunday - 06.00 Sunday
Ash.Gro.- 06.00-20.24 SX, 14.00 SO; Closed Sundays
FP2 - 22.00 Sunday - 06.00 Sunday
FP7 - As required.

[Mickey]

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[StevieG]

Sorry Micky; I should've listed the entries of all this area's boxes, not just the ones I thought we were mainly discussing. - :

- a fuller list : -
(Still from the just re-discovered BR(ER) KX Division circular I have; K.5557, HOURS OF OPENING OF SIGNAL BOXES, Mon. 19th May 1969).

This gives [ " $ = indicates closing switch not provided " ] :

Canonbury Jct. (L.M.) - 23.00 Sunday-06.50 Sunday
FP1$ - 22.00 Sunday-06.00 Sunday
Ash.Gro.- 06.00-20.24 SX, 14.00 SO; Closed Sundays
FP2 - 22.00 Sunday-06.00 Sunday
FP3 - Continuously
FP4 - Continuously
FP5 - Continuously
FP6$ - Continuously
FP7 - As required.

[Mickey]

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[lemmo]

Looking back at a 1:1250 OS map from 1938, this shows that the Ashburton Grove sidings extended all the way to behind Finsbury Park No. 1 box, where a connection was laid in to the GN & City sidings at Drayton Park. Was this link controlled by Ashburton Grove, before it was severed?

Also, looking at the 1938 map there are two lines coming down from Up East Goods Jn, with the westernmost one being lifted by the time of the 1954 map. I've checked across to a plan of the proposed LPTB works to extend to the Northern Heights, and the two lines are also marked there. These plans show that the Up East Goods was also linked across to a siding alongside the GN & City connection, and this would presumably allow shunt movements back into Ashburton Grove. Any idea how this was signalled?

It also begs the question whether this layout originally allowed movements back up the incline to Up East Gds box, and also whther the pair of lines were worked as reversible or Up-Down.

None of this appears on the Finsbury Pk No.1 diagram, which must be from a later date, but the various truncated leads suggest where lines used to run.

The more you look at this little area the more fascinating it becomes

[Mickey]

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[lemmo]

Thanks Micky.

The diagram below helps illustrate, edited from the proposed LPTB works for the extension to the Northern Heights (the purple dashed lines and red lines represented proposed new works, yellow is demolition).

I've marked the salient points, but it appears that No.1 box's domain originally extended to the sidings behind and the GN&City connection, and that the layout allowed movements across the Canonbury lines between Up Goods Yard and the Ashburton Grove sidings.

Any more info appreciated. Perhaps there's an older No.1 box diagram knocking around somewhere...

[R. pike]

What a super picture..

http://www.flickr.com/photos/40263244@N ... 725226012/

[Mickey]

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[lemmo]

Indeed a lovely photo, thanks

So presumably these stock moves in the Down direction from Drayton Pk would have involved three reversals to get onto the Down Canonbury around Ashburton Grove? First reversing in the Up platform at Drayton Pk, then to use the connection up the slope into the sidings at the north end of Highbury Vale Goods depot, then back through the sidings to the Up Canonbury, then reversing again on the Up Canonbury to cross over to the Down Canonbury... is that correct?