The LNER Encyclopedia

Tom Quayle · Post by **Tom Quayle** » Mon Jan 16, 2006 1:05 pm

Sorry if you took offence to that remark what I was trying to say was enthusest are what got the preservation movement where it is and a recent survey by the NRM relvelded that most visitors are enthusiast so its them who are the larger percentage of the income at shops and restaurants in the NRM (The restaurant in the station hall is very good) that will go towards the overhaul of scotsman so if the main public want a say take more involvement and the olny way to do that is be branded in the same group as the rest of us

Tom Quayle · Post by **Tom Quayle** » Mon Jan 16, 2006 1:08 pm

There is another way of looking at this. Do we want Scotsman back on the mainline as quick as possible in aurthentic conditions or do we want more money diverted away from repairs on Green Arrow for the A3 so it being outshoped in BR green appears to be the cheap option personally Id rather have both of them on the mainline (60800 is to emerge as 4771) even if they are in different liverys

x568wcn · Post by **x568wcn** » Mon Jan 16, 2006 6:54 pm

Is Green arrow to come out in LNER? I've never see it in LNER livery!

On the Subject of livery;
Go down to the national railway museum, and stand out side asking them 2 questions
1) What engine Carries the Number 4472, they will know
Then ask them
2) What Engine carries the number 60103, they won't have a clue

99% of people who see Scotsman don't know that it isn't authentic, and I can see a huge drop in the number of people wanting to travel behind it in BR livery, but hey never mind, it's going in LNER anyway!

Mark t

LNERandBR · Post by **LNERandBR** » Tue Jan 17, 2006 10:33 am

The main problem is that the joe public know it as 4472 and its more efficent with the double chimney and deflectors creating the out of prototype image which people like us pick up on.

The easy way to make it prototipical is to paint it green but the joe public wont know who she really is. This means that sometime she will have to get the double chimney removed and the graceful front end restored.

x568wcn · Post by **x568wcn** » Tue Jan 17, 2006 6:50 pm

My point exactly, but why hide it's identity? It's an LNER engine, so why hide the fact by sticking BR on the side, BR livery is all too common these days, it's like taking the badges off your car then putting different ones on to hide what it really is!

Mark t

Tom Quayle · Post by **Tom Quayle** » Wed Jan 18, 2006 9:31 am

The only thing about saying its hiding its true identity is that what the LNER livery is doing because in that condition it is 60103 not 4472 so realy its the oposite way round, covering its true identity for the ('no offence') authenticity blind public. Olton Hall is another example of this but I assume we are all in agreement on that one. The Rotton Red as it has become know in the NW is away from railtour because of the film contract so painting back and putting it onto railtour work most still make money and thats what Mr WCRC is interested in just look at how long his Jubillie is taking any where else (IRE for example) it would have been done in 7-10 years. How long will the 8Fs next overhaul take and will this appear in another stupid livery. The mid Hants has alot to answer for as well. U 2-6-0s were never Rotton Red either (its in Thomas the Tank red). Has the preservation movement gone mad

LNERandBR · Post by **LNERandBR** » Wed Jan 18, 2006 11:13 am

Exactly at the moment Flying Scotsman is a BR Engine.

As soon as the Double Chimney and Smoke Deflectors are removed it becomes both a LNER and BR Engine as she ren in BR green with the single Chimney.

This dosent mean that I want it to be BR Green I want the damm deflectors removed. The font end of an A3 is greaseful but with the defelctors it looks dare I say it Ugly

.

Its all about making money getting the joe public in to ride on the trains and if stupid liveries is what it takes then the locos will wair the stupid liveries.

Tom Quayle · Post by **Tom Quayle** » Wed Jan 18, 2006 1:08 pm

I can see the point keeping it as 4472 but as for Olton Hall the fact that it is just sitting there doing no railtours (it did 1 in 2005) the thing should only be painted in Poopy Potter Livery (Idea of a name I herd from a WCRC crew) when it is going on filming trips and not all the time to be languishing at Carnforth out of sight. Shurely the more work they get for it the more money for the Jubillie that they are restoring

jdtoronto · Post by **jdtoronto** » Wed Jan 18, 2006 6:56 pm

LNERandBR wrote:Exactly at the moment Flying Scotsman is a BR Engine.

As soon as the Double Chimney and Smoke Deflectors are removed it becomes both a LNER and BR Engine as she ren in BR green with the single Chimney.

This dosent mean that I want it to be BR Green I want the damm deflectors removed. The font end of an A3 is greaseful but with the defelctors it looks dare I say it Ugly .

Its all about making money getting the joe public in to ride on the trains and if stupid liveries is what it takes then the locos will wair the stupid liveries.

Well, cost has to come into it. Isn't that a good argument for keeping the Kylchap exhaust arrangement? I understand that one of the benefits of the arrangement is a better control over the fire and thus reduced cleanout and maintenance costs. I have seen reference to A4's with the Kylchap exhaust being kept in steam for a week without cleaning whereas other locos had to be raked out, cleaned and re-steamed every day.

If Scotsman can be kept in steam at lower maintenance cost then would this be an argument for keeping the Kylchap exhaust? If it needs the deflectors to run properly and be safe, then is it better that is has them rather than being unable to run?

Sure, it doesn't look the same. My only real recollection of Scotsman is from her Australian visit in 1988/89 as I recall she had single chimney, no deflectors, was in LNER Green and numbered 4472. Although that is the image I have in my mind, it is far more important to me that she be kept in steam at any cost, even if it means she has the Kylchap exhaust and the deflectors.

John

x568wcn · Post by **x568wcn** » Wed Jan 18, 2006 7:56 pm

Before the NRM bought Scotsman, you'd have to pay £200 to ride behind it, only for it to brake down, and not turn up, the NRM runs it for £30, and you get over an 80 mile journey.

Hey, no one has mentioned Mallard.....what I hear you ask?
The plaque on the side, they were fitted 05/03/1948....when it didn't have valances, and carried number E22..not authentic...nothing is what it seems when you look in to it.

If Scotsman lost the deflectors, no one would really notice the double chimeny, but as for the tender on the back, there's a few tonnes that's wrong in the BR livery.

Mark t

x568wcn · Post by **x568wcn** » Thu Jan 19, 2006 9:49 pm

That shut you all up hey?

If you got tothe BBC Nation on film Website http://www.bbc.co.uk/nationonfilm/location/north/ there are some films of Flying Scotsman, being overhauled for privatisation.
As she was in BR livery when withdrawn, it shows the single chimney being done, and the smoke deflectors off, running in the correct state......in BR Green (Which isn't Brunswick!)

Then it coming out of the paintshop in LNER livery, for the first time in public (with Red Nameplates?? they're black now??)

Mark T

John B · Post by **John B** » Thu Jan 19, 2006 11:13 pm

Well I like the LNER livery on her and I also like the BR livery on her, she'd look good in almost anything

The Kylchap and deflectors are of course incorrect for LNER livery, but please, even with these on she cannot be called ugly!?!?!?

My ten pen'orth

J

LNERandBR · Post by **LNERandBR** » Fri Jan 20, 2006 11:16 am

I still think that an A3 looks better without those deflectors.

jdtoronto · Post by **jdtoronto** » Fri Jan 20, 2006 4:22 pm

Maybe because you didnt grow up with locomotives having deflectors. THis is what my childhood memories are made of - the Victorian Railways R class 4-6-4.

Interestingly, can anybody guess what the design influence was for the second loco (Victorian Railways 'S' class) ? Nope, it is possibly the other way around! Yes, it is a three cylinder 4-6-2 Pacific, but they were built between 1928 and 1933. They were built in the Victorian Railways workshops at Newport in Melbourne and were streamlined between 1936 and 1938 to run the "Spirit of Progress" service. The tender is huge, carrying 9 tons of coal and 8,600 gallons of water all that being on two 6 wheel bogies to allow non stop running from Melbourne to Albury.

Colombo · Post by **Colombo** » Fri Jan 20, 2006 6:41 pm

John,

You are suggesting that the design of the GNR A1 influenced the design of the Australian R class, this may well be true to some extent, but let's not forget that there were other greater influences at work in those days, and in any case until it benefited from GWR long travel valves, the A1 was a little mediocre although heavily promoted by LNER publicity officers. No, there were other influences at work

The A Class built by Baldwins of the USA for New Zealand were the first Pacifics ever and there are two close relations of class Ab from 1925, which are still running the Kingston Flyer on South Island.
http://www.kingstonflyer.co.nz/activities.htm

In Britain we have a bad habit of thinking that we invented everything, but that is not absolutely true and our pre-grouping and LNER CMEs borrowed heavily from abroad. For example:

Schmidt Superheaters
Belpaire Fireboxes
Cartazzi trucks
Kylchap blast pipes
Dabeg feed water heaters

And now we have 4472 with foreign smoke deflectors and a foreign double chimney! Oh dear.

I shall digress a little and say that there is a double Fairlie from 1872 called Josephine displayed in the museum at Dunedin in New Zealand, she is just a large version of the ones on our own Festiniog Railway, pure British engineering, and she has two chimneys and two boilers. This little beauty redresses the balance for me.

http://www.cityofdunedin.com/city/?page=feat_josephine

Colombo

Why

Flying Scotsman