Returning to Grantham

[strang steel]

I was by no means the most hard done by. If you happen across a book called Lincolnshire Railway Memories (a tribute to the photographs of Jack Cupit) you will discover that he lived in Leicester, and would cycle for 3 1/2 hours to reach Grantham where he used to do his spotting from the footpath near to the shed entrance, and after a day there was faced with 3 1/2 hour ride back to Leicester.

His Mum made him a packed lunch because he never visited the buffet as he was never allowed on the platform. Now that is enthusiasm for you.

I think that at that particular station it was the usual case of the idiot minority spoiling everything for the rest. Because both Grantham's main platforms had main line faces where the non-stops would race through at 65-75 mph, the risk of accidents would be high with kids messing about, but there was a certain fraternity who seemed to think that running up the length of the platform alongside the decelerating loco of a stopping train was a clever thing to do, and presumably the waiting passengers and luggage were just the equivalent of a slalom course to be negotiated at high speed?

[61070]

Hello Simon,

Welcome to Returning to Grantham and many thanks for sharing your evocative photograph of 60118. When I began this thread I hoped that people would be willing to share some of their own photos and experiences, and so it has proven to be. It’s been a little quiet of late, so it’s great to see a new picture. Dare we hope for more?

Your photo is particularly interesting for me because it shows the gas lighting, which had been replaced on both platforms at the south end of the station by the time of our first visit in August 1961. Aren’t those ornate cast iron brackets on the Up side office buildings just delightful?

I’ll have to seek out a copy of Lincolnshire Railway Memories mentioned by John – that one had escaped me. Leicester to Grantham by road is quite a hilly route, so poor Jack really would have been ready for bed by the time he got home. We lived in Leicester too and, though we would travel to Grantham by bus, my Dad had been a road racing cyclist of some standing in the late '40s and early '50s and he knew the road very well.

This seems an appropriate moment to run past ‘our readers’ a short section of a narrative which I’ve been writing to accompany my father’s photos. It would be interesting to receive others’ views and comments:

The railway station at Grantham possessed a combination of characteristics which made it a really good location for watching and photographing the railway at work.
 Main line trains passenger services, including ‘named’ and Pullman trains, some of which passed through at speed, while others stopped
 It was a centre for connecting services to west and east
 Modest size, so that all activity was easily observed, but large and busy enough to have most ‘big station’ facilities such as a bookstall, refreshment rooms, a parcels office and a goods depot
 A curve to the north which limited the speed of the fastest trains and caused ‘up’ non-stop trains to accelerate through the station to gain speed for the climb southward to Stoke Tunnel. This provided both nice perspectives for photography and a good exhaust effect
 A clear view along straight track for about a mile south
 An up slow line which commenced at the south end of the up platform and continued to High Dyke sidings, just short of Stoke Tunnel
 A bi-directional goods line to the west of the platforms, where some freight trains waited while faster traffic passed through
 Friendly staff [well, they were to us - but then I always had my father alongside!] of several railway departments
 A locomotive yard visible from the station
 A signal box at each end of the station, with two more outlying north and south; and, mostly, traditional semaphore signals which, unlike colour light signals, can be ‘read’ from both in front and behind
 An open aspect from the west, giving good lighting for afternoon and evening photography
 Interesting architectural features such as Victorian gas lamps and decorative structural ironwork, and even such prosaic objects as the old platform barrows and trolleys, which add interest to so many of these pictures.

There was a very wide range of railway traffic at Grantham at that time, including:
 Express passenger services on the East Coast Main Line
 Luxury Pullman trains linking London with cities in Yorkshire, the North East of England and Scotland
 Local passenger services to Nottingham and Lincoln
 Postal, parcels and newspaper trains
 Express freight trains, such as the 'Scotch Goods' and fish trains from Hull to London King's Cross.
 Coal from the Nottinghamshire coalfield to London and East Anglia
 Ironstone from the quarries and mines around Colsterworth and Buckminster to the Frodingham steelworks at Scunthorpe.

[60129 GUY MANNERING]

I was by no means the most hard done by. If you happen across a book called Lincolnshire Railway Memories (a tribute to the photographs of Jack Cupit) you will discover that he lived in Leicester, and would cycle for 3 1/2 hours to reach Grantham where he used to do his spotting from the footpath near to the shed entrance, and after a day there was faced with 3 1/2 hour ride back to Leicester.

His Mum made him a packed lunch because he never visited the buffet as he was never allowed on the platform. Now that is enthusiasm for you.

I think that at that particular station it was the usual case of the idiot minority spoiling everything for the rest. Because both Grantham's main platforms had main line faces where the non-stops would race through at 65-75 mph, the risk of accidents would be high with kids messing about, but there was a certain fraternity who seemed to think that running up the length of the platform alongside the decelerating loco of a stopping train was a clever thing to do, and presumably the waiting passengers and luggage were just the equivalent of a slalom course to be negotiated at high speed?

I used to spot at Grantham station in the late 50's with a group that included Dennis (Denny) Burgoine from South Parade in Grantham, his father "Ted" was notorious for despatching spotters from the platforms at the slightest sign of misbehaviour. He was very fair though as Denny and me were always despatched along with the rest of the spotters,there was no favouritism shown by "Ted".
Dennis went on to make a career for himself on the Railway and I often bumped into him at Kings Cross when he was based at Ilford.
Regards,Derek.

[adge]

That is a stunning photograph. It could even be us - our school choir - on the way back from Peterborough to Nottingham circa 1959. Could be, but pretty sure it's not, don't recognise any of the figures there. Of that trip I can only recall arriving back at Peterborough Station and Silver Fox flying through. Then at Grantham gazing for what seemed hours at 60005 and 60155, both simmering gently, facing each other on the shed side of the station. Memories!

[workev]

I have a number of questions to ask, so will list them one at a time.

Whilst I am looking at 1956/57 services I think my question about the Derby/Nottingham-Grantham services is still valid for the early 1960s. When a steam service came into Grantham I assume that they used either the Western Bay at the North of the station (Platform 4?) or the most westerly through Platform (Platform 5?). Either way, the loco would have to run round its train. If it was the bay platform I assume that the station pilot removed the coaches, thus freeing the engine. If it used the through platform I assume it ran round the coaches using the goods loops.

My question is in 2 parts. If the locomotive was a tender-locomotive was it turned on the triangle; and if so at what stage did it do this (and was it watered on the shed or on the platform). If it was a tank locomotive did they run bunker first, and if so in which direction?

The second part relates to number of services that (at least in 1956/57) were split or added to at Grantham (these included the Nottingham-KX workings) and some of the parcels. I assume that the station pilots were used to undertake this work prior to or after the main working. I also assume that the Grantham sections of the Nottingham-KX working were added to the rear of the Nottingham-Grantham portion in Platform 1?

Ian

[ROY@34F]

Ian (workev), Referring to your last post , I can't answer most of your queries , only the one regarding tank engines . In my experience , with a Grantham L1 we always ran bunker first to Nottingham and Derby . I've an idea that it may have been so that on leaving Derby, we were chimney first up Breadsall bank , thereby making sure the firebox was well covered with water. Occasionally we would have a B1 , in which case , on arrival at Derby Friargate , we would set off , after being uncoupled , around a triangle of railways in the vicinity ,but can't remember where exactly . Therefore chimney first there and back.
Sorry that's all I can tell you. Incidently ,the B1's were a treat on that job , the L1's were terribly rough riding at speed.
Regards , Roy.

[61070]

To add to Roy's comment, in every photo I have in my collection which shows an L1 at Grantham the loco's facing smokebox south. There are 6 such photos (most are either in this thread or here: viewtopic.php?f=11&t=3026&start=15 ), all taken in 1961 or 1962. The odds against every one of these engines facing south if each loco could have faced in a random direction is, I think, 1 in 64 (maths specialists shoot me down in flames if that's incorrect - I never fully got to grips with probability theory).

I've ordered a copy of Lincolnshire Raiway Memories - looking forward to it dropping through the door.

[61070]

I also assume that the Grantham sections of the Nottingham-KX working were added to the rear of the Nottingham-Grantham portion in Platform 1?
Ian

Not sure if you mean the bay platform on the Up side here - which was platform 1 (and today no longer exists) or the main Up side through platform, which is today's platform 1 but used to be platform 2. The other platform numbers quoted with queries (4 and 5) are correct for the period in question.

[CVR1865]

That is a stunning photograph. It could even be us - our school choir - on the way back from Peterborough to Nottingham circa 1959. Could be, but pretty sure it's not, don't recognise any of the figures there. Of that trip I can only recall arriving back at Peterborough Station and Silver Fox flying through. Then at Grantham gazing for what seemed hours at 60005 and 60155, both simmering gently, facing each other on the shed side of the station. Memories!

Wish I had that memory.

[kudu]

...The odds against every one of these engines facing south if each loco could have faced in a random direction is, I think, 1 in 64 (maths specialists shoot me down in flames if that's incorrect - I never fully got to grips with probability theory).

I agree it's 1 in 64 for them all to face south, or 1 in 32 for them all to face the same direction (north or south).
Unless you're waiting to photograph one on a train, when it's 1 in 1 it will be bunker first.

Kudu

[workev]

I also assume that the Grantham sections of the Nottingham-KX working were added to the rear of the Nottingham-Grantham portion in Platform 1?
Ian

Not sure if you mean the bay platform on the Up side here - which was platform 1 (and today no longer exists) or the main Up side through platform, which is today's platform 1 but used to be platform 2. The other platform numbers quoted with queries (4 and 5) are correct for the period in question.

John, thanks for the clarification, I always forget about Platform 1 being the bay. I assume that was used for Lincoln/Skegness/Boston DMU services?

Ian

[workev]

Ian (workev), Referring to your last post , I can't answer most of your queries , only the one regarding tank engines . In my experience , with a Grantham L1 we always ran bunker first to Nottingham and Derby . I've an idea that it may have been so that on leaving Derby, we were chimney first up Breadsall bank , thereby making sure the firebox was well covered with water. Occasionally we would have a B1 , in which case , on arrival at Derby Friargate , we would set off , after being uncoupled , around a triangle of railways in the vicinity ,but can't remember where exactly . Therefore chimney first there and back.
Sorry that's all I can tell you. Incidently ,the B1's were a treat on that job , the L1's were terribly rough riding at speed.
Regards , Roy.

Roy, thanks for the info with regards to the L1s; I assume this is true for any tank locomotives used?

As a follow up question; did the B1s use the Bay (Platform 4) for inward services to Grantham, or mainly Platform 5? In addition if the trains used Platform 4 did the station pilot remove the stock to release the coaches or was the loco left until another took the stock back towards Nottingham/Derby?

Finally did the locos at the south end of Platform 5 use the goods lines to enter the shed/Triangle from the North, or did they enter from the south?

Ian

[strang steel]

I also assume that the Grantham sections of the Nottingham-KX working were added to the rear of the Nottingham-Grantham portion in Platform 1?
Ian

Not sure if you mean the bay platform on the Up side here - which was platform 1 (and today no longer exists) or the main Up side through platform, which is today's platform 1 but used to be platform 2. The other platform numbers quoted with queries (4 and 5) are correct for the period in question.

John, thanks for the clarification, I always forget about Platform 1 being the bay. I assume that was used for Lincoln/Skegness/Boston DMU services?

Ian

Not Skegness, because there were very few Grantham to Skegness services in those days; mainly SO and SuO summer dated trains.

[ROY@34F]

Ian,regarding your latest queries:I can't remember how the stock was removed in the bay or plat. 5 .I'm pretty sure we always used plat.5 for the Notts. trains.I can't recall other tank engines in use,it was just before my time.But I can remember A5's on shed facing north when I started as a cleaner.
One thing I am sure of is,entry to the loco was ALWAYS from the north box end.It was possible to get out the loco.into the down goods yard just about on a level with the cenotaph coaling plant.But it was obviously extremely rarely used,and was only there as an emergency. I can remember it used once in my spell as time office runner,when a young cleaner.The foreman,Fred Blanchard ,was watching very closely (as I was) as an A3 creaked along the rusty rails to get out of loco.There must have been something wrong up the north end I suppose.But as for the supposition that engines may enter the loco from the south as an everyday occurrence:definitely NOT.
Regards Roy

[workev]

Ian,regarding your latest queries:I can't remember how the stock was removed in the bay or plat. 5 .I'm pretty sure we always used plat.5 for the Notts. trains.I can't recall other tank engines in use,it was just before my time.But I can remember A5's on shed facing north when I started as a cleaner.
One thing I am sure of is,entry to the loco was ALWAYS from the north box end.It was possible to get out the loco.into the down goods yard just about on a level with the cenotaph coaling plant.But it was obviously extremely rarely used,and was only there as an emergency. I can remember it used once in my spell as time office runner,when a young cleaner.The foreman,Fred Blanchard ,was watching very closely (as I was) as an A3 creaked along the rusty rails to get out of loco.There must have been something wrong up the north end I suppose.But as for the supposition that engines may enter the loco from the south as an everyday occurrence:definitely NOT.
Regards Roy

Roy, thanks once again for the clarification re the entrance to the loco.

I have many more questions, and will post some tomorrow.

In the meantime..... can anybody shed any light on the marshalling of trains as in my original question. In 56/67 some passenger and several parcel trains were split or joined at Grantham for services to Nottingham/Derby (and beyond), Lincoln/Boston (parcels) and I think a couple of other workings where stock was shunted around (Manchester/Sheffield). I have never really seen any evidence of this in photos, but it must have happened, so does anybody have any memories of this? I think by the early 1960s only parcels will have been shunted around, but I am happy to be proved wrong.