CLC coaching stock identification query

[9E]

Can anyone help me learn more about a CLC carriage?

The carriage is CLC number M4 (this is the number it acquired post-nationalisation). It is a panelled non-corridor composite (compartments arranged 3311133) with elliptical roof and looks to be approximately 50ft long with a shape similar to the GC matchboard stock.

I can’t post the photograph I have of it for the usual copyright reasons (April 1951 photo showing the carriage and an N5 at Manchester Central in "Railway Rambles on the Cheshire Lines" by C.T.Goode, published 1987. I think it is a Casserley photo.)

Can anyone help with the diagram number and perhaps a possible source of drawings/further information?

Many thanks

Simon

[wehf100]

No doubt Mr Bedford, carriage guru, will spot this and let you have further details, but in case not. This sound like an escapee from the former Manchester-Liverpool express 5-car sets of which 9 were built for the CLC at GCR's Dunkinfield carriage works in 1914. They were 50ft long so that was a mighty accurate estimation!! They retained pannelling but appear to conform to the overall profile of GCR matchboards of similar vintage. Only one line in Dow's history of the GCR refers to them, but they sound swish with walnut+sycamore pannelling with blue upholstery in 1st, teak with red upholstery in 3rd. Burnished bronze fittings throughout! Sounds more comfortable than my living room...

Something of these carriages appears to have survived to the modern day, but not much... http://www.cs.vintagecarriagestrust.org ... p?Ref=5344


Hope someone can provide you with diagram no's and drawings. You need someone with a copy of the diagram book on their bookshelf!

Will

[Bill Bedford]

No doubt Mr Bedford, carriage guru, will spot this and let you have further details, but in case not. This sound like an escapee from the former Manchester-Liverpool express 5-car sets of which 9 were built for the CLC at GCR's Dunkinfield carriage works in 1914. They were 50ft long so that was a mighty accurate estimation!! They retained pannelling but appear to conform to the overall profile of GCR matchboards of similar vintage. Only one line in Dow's history of the GCR refers to them, but they sound swish with walnut+sycamore pannelling with blue upholstery in 1st, teak with red upholstery in 3rd. Burnished bronze fittings throughout! Sounds more comfortable than my living room...
Something of these carriages appears to have survived to the modern day, but not much... Maybe this is a suburban though- I can't tell from the picture if this originally had a corridor connection. http://www.cs.vintagecarriagestrust.org ... p?Ref=5344
Hope someone can provide you with diagram no's and drawings. You need someone with a copy of the diagram book on their bookshelf.

I can't help with a diagram, 'cos I haven't got a CLC one. My copy of this photo has 'diagram 49' written on the back. There are some interesting things about this coach.
1/ it looks as it it has been recently outshopped in red livery.
2/ It has an 8' version of Robinson double bolster bogie, were the 8' ones double or single bolstered?
3/ It has a large figure '1' in one quarterlight of each first class compartment. Another photo of M1, taken about the same time, shows the same figures, but other photos take a few years later don't have this feature. Has anyone any info on this livery quirk? was it just CLC? how long did it last?

As for as I know the CLC didn't have corridor stock until the 30s and all the stock built after 1900 was 50' This suggests there was a problem with a junction geometry which would not allow longer stock (pace the GE 52'6" stock). Anyone know where this would have been?

[9E]

Many thanks Will and Bill for your help.

1+3/ Around this time it seems that a number of CLC carriages were being overhauled and repainted at Doncaster (Dukinfield having closed by this point?). The Railway Observer at the time reports that the morning Sheffield-Manchester Central service (I assume this was the train ex-Leicester) was often used to return CLC coaching stock after overhaul. Coaches seemed to return either in brown (presumably teak paint?) or the new colours with the number applied to the right hand end and CLC applied to the left (In the early BR period numbers were normally (at least on LMS stock) applied to the left hand of the carriage side). The large figure 1 certainly appeared in the windows of some LMS (or LMS designed, British Railways built) coaches of the period. The ones I recall shown in Essery and Jenkinson were gangwayed though. I'm not at home at present so can't check.

2/ The idea of modelling this coach with the unusual(?) bogies attached to a typical GC section five-coach rake quite appealed. Hence my original question.

As for the length of CLC stock, I always (naively) assumed that it was just the CLC being the poor relation as usual. Given the amount of through working, e.g. Liverpool-Harwich/Hull, Liverpool-Chinley (in MR days at least), Aintree specials (when were the Pullmans first used?), there can’t have been much of the system where coach length would have been a problem (at least by the Grouping) or does that just mean that the problem was on the Chester line!

Bill, can I ask what the source of your photo of M1 is? Also do you happen to know if there is a CLC diagram book in the National Archives/NRM?

A quick internet search shows that one was being offered after a Sheffield Railwayana auction for 10 Pounds a year or two back!

Thanks again.

Simon

[60022Mallard]

Bill Bedford commented that the coach in the background of the GER "funeral coach" depicted at strand "Coach provenances and types" not long ago looked like a CLC panelled coach.

If this is the vehicle type there is probably a H. C. Casserley picture of it one reference number above or below that stated. I have a picture of the vehicle to the left which I can check for the reference number to reasonably ascertain that of the "CLC" vehicle.

[wehf100]

Simon,

The CLC diagram books are at Kew, references RAIL110.

Carriages (1887-1928) are RAIL 110/175 and RAIL110/179
Wagons built by MSLR 1886-1915 are RAIL 110/176
ditto 'specially constructed' RAIL 110/177

Good luck- at least the TNA has a fairly liberal policy when it comes to copying and photographing things. The carriage sounds like an interesting candidate for a scale model.

Will

[jwealleans]

Reference the large figure '1' in the windows of first class compartments; a large number of the photographs in the collection Wil highlighted on Ebay during last year had the same feature. It seems to have been a post war, perhaps also post nationalisation thing. The photo I worked from for the GE composite I built showed them, but I didn't apply them as I didn't have any transfers which looked anything like them.

It's not anything I've seen mentioned in any of the usual livery sources. Is there anything in the recent 'LNER in Transition' book?

[Bill Bedford]

2/ The idea of modelling this coach with the unusual(?) bogies attached to a typical GC section five-coach rake quite appealed. Hence my original question.

I have done etchings for a D.15 which was a cove roofed third with the earlier GC boges.

Bill, can I ask what the source of your photo of M1 is? Also do you happen to know if there is a CLC diagram book in the National Archives/NRM?

Casserley No 71555
I also have photos of a D17 -- Elliptical roofed third from 1914 -- Casserley 70969
A D.47 -- the cove roofed version of D49 -- Casserley 88576
And another coved roofed composite arranged 33111Lav33 But I don't know the diagram number for this one.
If you are going to be at S4N at Wakefield this weekend Jeremy Suter usually has some CLC carriage photos with him.

[9E]

Thanks again everyone.

60022Mallard,

it was the photo you posted that got me thinking about this CLC coach. Should I be looking for Casserley 48345 or 48347?

Bill,

Sadly I won't be at S4N, but I'll contact Jeremy Suter and see what he has. Thanks for the photo references.

Will,

Many thanks for the NA reference. I tried an A2A search the other day, but failed miserably to locate the diagram books.

It looks like I've some interesting research ahead!

Simon

[Colombo]

Simon,

I hope that you found what you wanted. If not there is a CLC diagram book at the NRM, I had a look at it earlier this year to try and identify the carriages that Bill is offering.

There is a photo of an identical diagram 49 carriage in David Jenkinson's British Railway Carriages 1901 t0 1922, page 143 as built with the three CLC armorial devices on each side and this one is number 9.

The HMRS published a series of articles on "The Coaching Stock of the Cheshire Lines Committee" by G Y Hemingway in the 1968 Journal Vol 6. There is a full set in their library at Butterley. I was allowed to photocopy the 11 parts of this series and now have a full record of CLC carriages and NPCS from inception to 1930. This lists an order for 9 bogie composite coaches to Diag.49 @ £1,392.13.9 apiece (nos 1-9) placed on the GCR at Dukinfield in 1913. All were delivered in 1914.

I hope this helps,

Colombo

[65447]

Reference the large figure '1' in the windows of first class compartments; a large number of the photographs in the collection Wil highlighted on Ebay during last year had the same feature. It seems to have been a post war, perhaps also post nationalisation thing. The photo I worked from for the GE composite I built showed them, but I didn't apply them as I didn't have any transfers which looked anything like them.

It's not anything I've seen mentioned in any of the usual livery sources. Is there anything in the recent 'LNER in Transition' book?

Jonathan,

It's a wartime ARP/blackout-related feature. The large numeral '1' was placed in 1st class compartment quarterlights and corridor windows in order to show up much more clearly in reduced or non-existent lighting conditions during the blackout. The practice appears to have been phased out c1949.

This is apparent in most wartime and immediate post-war photographs if you look closely. Even the ex-GER 6-wheelers on the Mid-Suffolk had them...

[9E]

Hi Colombo,

Sorry for the slow reply. I haven't had much of a chance to look at the LNER forum recently.

Your infomation is really useful. I'll have to get hold of the HMRS Journal articles - perhaps time to re-join the society.


Many thanks,

Simon