Pre-Grouping coaching stock

[Frazmataz]

I have thought of trying one of the Slaters MR/GSWR 6wheelers to see if it might suit.

It seems you might not need to tinker too much with the original kits, Rob... according to Wizard Models (who sells etched brass kits of the coaches that Slaters also sell):

"The Clayton six wheel carriage stock provided the mainstay of the Midland and MSJS services, with over 1200 of five variants produced between 1878 and 1895. Indeed some were built by both the G&SWR and NBR to Midland drawings." (bold done by me.)

I am unsure what colour schemes such coaches would have used under the LNER, however

[rob]

Thanks a lot for that tip,I was hoping something like that might be the case.Please let me know if you come across any more information.I will keep and eye out for what livery old exNBR coaches were most likely to end up in by the late 20's/early 30's.The NBR are not well served by even stalwarts like D&S when it comes to rolling stock.Bill Bedford has a few coach etches for sides and u/f but these are the only coach components I'm aware of.Oddly for a company with such good-looking and capable locomotives,their coaches seem,from my limited knowledge, fairly bland and non-descript which may help explain the shortage of kits.

[Frazmataz]

No problem, glad to be of service. Be sure to let me know if you find any livery details

[Bill Bedford]

Does anyone know where I could find kits of Pre-Grouping Six-wheel coaches, from any of the constituent companies, in 4mm scale?

Yep, I do brass etchings for both GCR and GNR coaches plus MR, Tilbury, LSWR, NSR, S&DJR and probaby others I've forgotten about.

Bu you say you don't want to tackle a brass kit, is there any particular reason for this?

It may be possible to do most coaches in a different medium, but such kits would be more expensive than brass ones, though there would likely be fewer parts. Baring in mind that a kit for an etched six wheeler is now nearly £40 how much would people be willing to pay for a kit which would consist of a/ sides, ends, roof and underframes or b/ complete body and underframe?

[Frazmataz]

I never said I wouldn't do brass kits - In fact I can't wait to try one! I in fact meant kit-bashing - scratch-building from bits taken from various kits and other sources.

However, price is a major consideration for all railways models I purchase, as I am a minor, so I have to run things by my parents first My price ceiling for such kits as you describe would probably be 30-35 pounds. I would normally try to get kits for less, but I could accept that price (or even a little closer to 40), a) because I only really want one or two 6-wheelers, b) because of the heightened price of brass, and c) because 6-wheelers are so rare in any form.

My main frustration in searching for kits is that they are almost never complete: Why would you only produce and sell half a coach, body or underframe? I experience the same frustration with loco kits too, some of which are sold at even higher prices than RTR models, and yet come with no wheels, no gears, no motor, no paint, etc. etc.

[jwealleans]

Welcome, Bill. Nice to have you aboard.

Bass - on a limited budget you'll probably find you're steering a course between accuracy and affordability. At the other end of the spectrum from Bill's kits I saw a Triang clerestory coach which had been cut down into a 6 wheeler on a layout recently and it didn't look half bad. A good paint job can hide a multitude of sins.

I was also looking recently at a resin kit for a Metropolitan coach which will set you back £60 - and that's before you start looking for wheels, paint and transfers.

The hardest part of any coach is the sides and that's where an etched kit will get you what you need. If the roof is plain and you're happy doing metalwork, cut and roll some brass sheet. If not, do it in plastic. Floor and solebars can also be done very cheaply in plastikard or styrene as can the interior. There are a number of 6 wheel chassis assemblies available and Bill almost certainly does his own as well, if you're not confident about putting your own together.

Part of the answer to your question about kits being 'incomplete' is down to specialisation - one man can't necessarily know everything about motors, gearboxes, paint, transfers, etc. People have their own preferences when it comes to the wheels, motor and gearbox they want for a loco and may just throw away what's in the box - or not buy the kit because they don't want to pay the extra. I wouldn't pay an extra £20 for an RTR loco if it's got a DCC chip because I don't do DCC. I expect part of it when it comes to coaches is also due to how much extra the cost of castings would add.

To go back to your question, Bill, I don't think your prices are out of the way. There aren't many people to compare to now Dan Pinnock is out of 4mm but given the (I guess) small demand for these kits and obscurity of some of the prototypes you cover, I think you're about right.

Bass - to give you an idea of what's possible, have a look at my workbench where I'm building one of Bill's 'sides and ends' kits. It's a bogie vehicle but it'll give you an idea of what you can do using his excellent etches as a starting point. I'll update it with the latest photos this morning.

[Bill Bedford]

I never said I wouldn't do brass kits - In fact I can't wait to try one! I in fact meant kit-bashing - scratch-building from bits taken from various kits and other sources.

However, price is a major consideration for all railways models I purchase, as I am a minor, so I have to run things by my parents first My price ceiling for such kits as you describe would probably be 30-35 pounds. I would normally try to get kits for less, but I could accept that price (or even a little closer to 40),

I would be looking for, maybe, double that price. But then I would be aiming these models at people who would normally have their kits professionally built.

My main frustration in searching for kits is that they are almost never complete: Why would you only produce and sell half a coach, body or underframe? I experience the same frustration with loco kits too, some of which are sold at even higher prices than RTR models, and yet come with no wheels, no gears, no motor, no paint, etc. etc.

Actually this is done because it is what the majority of customers want. They tend to get upset if the kits contain scale wheels and they have to find replacements to fit on their less than scale track.

[Frazmataz]

I would be looking for, maybe, double that price. But then I would be aiming these models at people who would normally have their kits professionally built.

Well, I like to do all of my stuff myself rather than having them professionally built, so I guess I'm not exactly your target consumer

Part of the answer to your question about kits being 'incomplete' is down to specialisation - one man can't necessarily know everything about motors, gearboxes, paint, transfers, etc. People have their own preferences when it comes to the wheels, motor and gearbox they want for a loco and may just throw away what's in the box - or not buy the kit because they don't want to pay the extra. I wouldn't pay an extra £20 for an RTR loco if it's got a DCC chip because I don't do DCC. I expect part of it when it comes to coaches is also due to how much extra the cost of castings would add.

My issue is not with the exclusion of such parts, but with prices in the £100 pound region in such kits - I do not believe that the contents of these kits justify such prices.

Actually this is done because it is what the majority of customers want. They tend to get upset if the kits contain scale wheels and they have to find replacements to fit on their less than scale track.

Yes, I agree with this and I understand that you can't package any old wheels in there and expect all costumers to be satisfied. However, what I don't understand is the idea of selling the parts to make a coach body and roof, but not including the parts to make its chassis. Is the costumer to presume that there is some set of standard chassis parts out there to fit body kits, or are all potential buyers expected to have the extra time and resources needed to scratchbuild their own? Even if sellers provide both body and chassis kits, wouldn't it be more economically sound to provide both in the same kit?

EDIT: And here I find myself in a trap of my own making: A buyer wouldn't buy such a kit if they didn't have the time/resources

And so, my issue really boils down to the hassle and added expense (Through VAT and postal charge) of having to source individual parts from several places - Coach body and roof from one company, chassis from another, bogies from yet another... why haven't manufacturers provided all of the neccessary componenents for the prototypes they have modeled (Excluding wheels, an area where consumers, quite understandably, have their own preferences), which makes sure consumers will only buy from one company to make a complete product and also gets rid of a lot of hassle?

[rob]

Hi Bass,
I agree that kits are expensive-initially-but I think if I did a calculation of how much the kit costs against the time taken to build it then in most cases it works out as very cheap entertainment by the hour! Thus if I spend say £40 to £60 on a kit and take ten hours to build it(a miracle in my case usually!)I reckon its very good value compared to RTR!
The other factor with kits is the obscurity value and thus very low sales volume-a manufacturer will put hours into drawing up the artwork for a Diaxyz 12wheel clerestory sleeper in 1906 condition and two people will buy it!OK,3 from this forum! I would guess profit margins are very slim,indeed I think both Little Engines and Nu-Cast are sidelines for their owners yet seem pretty mainstream to us!Others manufacturers run their businesses as retirement projects/cottage industries,and probably make little enough from them.
Both Alan Docherty and Bill are also bespoke producers and a lot of their etches were probably originally custom orders that are then made available to the rest of us having been professionally built for the original client.
I really take your point about sourcing the small bits though-imagine what its like for me over here where everything has to be done at longer range!And it seems more and more small producers are ceasing production for various reasons.It can take me a good few weeks just to collect the parts,especially now Dave Cleal is winding down.A plus for me is that I'm not finescale so can accept reasonably right,as with the Ratio conversions.
Worth it all in the end too as you get to have unusual prototypes and the satisfaction of putting so much of yourself into them!
Cheers,
Rob

[Robpulham]

Bass, 51L has some pre grouping Midland Clayton 6 wheeled coaches on at £21.00 - http://www.51l.co.uk/51lprices.htm I was looking earlier after seeing them at Scalefour Wakefield today (51L/Wizard not the coaches).

[Frazmataz]

Thanks for the pointer, robpulham, but the link doesn't seem to work

[Robpulham]

Bass if you try the link a gain it will now work (I had an extra dot after the htm which I have edited out)

[Frazmataz]

Excellent, thanks for that

[Frazmataz]

Still looking for pre-grouping coaches, and I'm now focusing on NER coaches on a fairly loose budget (but budget nontheless!). However, apart from Bill Bedford's kits and those massively expensive RTR ones by John Fozard, I haven't seen any - does anyone know of any other manufacturer of NER coaches in 4mm scale? Alternatively, I would be interested to hear of any conversion or kit-bashing work that people have attempted.

[EdgeHill8A]

The Perseverance GCR bogie coach kits mentioned are not entirely accurate, and in particular the bodies are 6 inches (2mm) too high - which is very obvious when the coaches are coupled to a locomotive. The panelling is not entirely correct either.

These kits are also very difficult to construct for a variety of reasons. Not least that a new low-elliptical roof is required - the metal one provided is useless. It is also not easy to fold up the clerestory -a length of 3.5mm square bar is needed. The commode handles are too fragile and need to be replaced; the door handles are too large; and the etched slots for the hinges are too small and must be enlarged - not at all easy! Other adjustments are required.

I have made up six of these in all, and frankly I would not wish to do it again. They are not at all unbuildable, but I would classify them as suitable for very experienced modellers only. But of course if you want GCR coaches then it is that or scratch build.

A chap trading as Quainton Road Models once offered body-only kits for some GCR six-wheelers. In spite of being body-only kits these are completely unbuildable - avoid!

What a pity that Danny Pinnock no longer offers 4mm kits!