8 Wheel non bogie carriages

[60022Mallard]

On eBay at the moment is a photograph of LNER carriage 4350 which is said to be an 8 wheel non-bogie vehicle.

Is this correct? If so, what arrangement was there for taking up lateral movement across diverging pointwork?

[Hatfield Shed]

Eight wheel coaches had a brief currency as the natural 'next step' from six wheelers until that radical foreign import - the bogie - proved in almost every way superior. I should think the Cleminson radial arrangement was used to ease the squeaking around curves; but have absolutely no proof of this. The HMRS may have something on this fairly obscure corner of coach design.

[65447]

This is the quickest way to answer your question, see 'Buckjumper's' Basilica Fields blog
http://basilicafields.wordpress.com/201 ... -rigid-8s/

[manna]

G'Day Gents

The GNR had a few of them, bet they were rough riders.

manna

[2512silverfox]

The GN ran quite a few rigid eight wheelers. Many were incorporated into the Gresley designed twins, triplets and quads rebuilt during the period 1908 to 1920, but some did escape and the vehicle which is shown in the photo ran in the S Area of the LNER until just before WW2. I have a similar photo of it taken at Hitchin in 1938.

What is interesting in the e-bay photo is th small section of the previous vehicle which is the toilet window from one of the ex ECJS corridor six wheelers which were articulated to form twins in 1908, hence the lining.

[john coffin]

interesting comments, but some incorrect information guys.

1/ bogies were not a foreign import, the GNR had a bogie carriage in 1874, but more importantly, joseph wright, whose company later became Metro Cammell, took out a bogie patent in 1844, there were 4,6 and 8 wheel items. In addition, William Bridges Adams proposed an 8 wheel carriage in 1847 onwards, and also proposed an articulated carriage
quite early too.

2/ the GNR 8 wheelers were actually a radial axle design, but the inner 2 axles used similar axleboxes to the normal 6 wheelers. it is important to remember that bogies were originally quite heavy, so a number of designs were tried out
to keep the weight down.

3/ it is true that a number of the 8 wheelers were converted for use on artics, bt none of them were ECJS stock.

paul

[65447]

interesting comments, but some incorrect information guys.
You said it!

1/ bogies were not a foreign import, the GNR had a bogie carriage in 1874, but more importantly, joseph wright, whose company later became Metro Cammell, took out a bogie patent in 1844, there were 4,6 and 8 wheel items. In addition, William Bridges Adams proposed an 8 wheel carriage in 1847 onwards, and also proposed an articulated carriage
quite early too.

2/ the GNR 8 wheelers were actually a radial axle design, but the inner 2 axles used similar axleboxes to the normal 6 wheelers. it is important to remember that bogies were originally quite heavy, so a number of designs were tried out
to keep the weight down.

3/ it is true that a number of the 8 wheelers were converted for use on artics, bt none of them were ECJS stock.

paul

1. It was the Midland, not the GNR that introduced the bogie carriage to the UK in 1874. There is a history of parallel inventions and developments between the UK and the US (and some other countries) in the 19th century due to the separation by distance, lack of ready communications, differing legal systems, and absence of a global registration system for patents and designs - still a problem today;

2. Where they truly radial, or just free to 'float' laterally (the typical model solution to the problem)?

3. The first carriages to be articulated under Gresley as C&W Superindent were Howlden-design ECJS 6-wheelers Nos. 202 and 206 in January 1907. Gresley applied for a patent for articulation on 23rd February 1907, which was granted on 2nd January 1908.

[john coffin]

1/ please check your facts again properly as i did before i posted. whilst the midland may have been the first to introduce a range of bogie carriages, the GNR certainly had at least one in 1874, indeed it was the introduction of this that put stirling off bogie carriages for a long time.
references include, metro cammell, hamilton ellis, kitchenside, and indeed william bridges adams own book.

2/ i guess that depends on whether you think the centre axle on a gnr 6 wheeler is a "proper" radial axle.

3/ i did not say that the carriages on artics were not ecjs, what i actually said was the the ecjs did not have
"rigid" eight wheelers like those on the GNR.

4/ i agree that there was a cross breeding between the continents over railway evolution, does not however change the fact that the first recorded patent for a railway carriage bogie was taken out in britain by Joseph Wright. it is not easy researching the early evolution of uk railway coaches, but there are some interesting and useful snippets of information our there, if you are prepared to look, and not rely on biased publicity from other railway groups.
paul

[60022Mallard]

If anybody knows how to go from a screen capture on eBay to posting a picture on here it may help.

It is beyond my technical ability.

The inner axle boxes appear to be very similar to the outer ones, just set projecting further.

[Blink Bonny]

Ay up!

Sorry to disappoint you, but the Ffestiniog railway introduced bogie carriages in 1872. They'd had a bogie loco for 3 years already....

[65447]

if you are prepared to look, and not rely on biased publicity from other railway groups.
paul

What on earth are you going on about?

[2512silverfox]

Quite agree 65447, not sure that he is actually reading what has been said!

[StoneRoad]

Speaking as an ex-Ffesti guard.....I've seen them often enough!

The two Ffestiniog carriages were built by Brown Marshalls in 1872, and hold the record as being the first iron framed bogie carriages in the world.
Currently running as Carriage 15 and Carriage 16.



(I think at least one of them should be at Railfest.......)

[john coffin]

according to lacey and dow vol 1 the bogie carriages were not actually built by the midland until 1875, although designed in 1874, see pages 54/5.

but my major point is there are a lot of people who put down the carriages of the gnr at this time, not least because there are sparce written details of gnr carriages until 1905, in my view the enthusiasm for gresley carriages has over shadowed howlden and earlier carriages. it is important to remember that even the "mighty midland" was still building 4 and 6 wheelers in 1874.

the generic books on carriages tend to be biased particularly toward the midland, hence my comments.

paul

[JASd17]

Also according to Lacy and Dow the Midland ran the first Pullman carriage in January 1874.

John