Returning to Grantham

[61070]

Many thanks to all for your help with identifying and dating the photo of the A1 running onto the turntable. I had nearly convinced myself that 60132 was the most likely candidate, but when you've looked at an indistinct detail like that long enough you can easily begin to imagine something that's not there. So the collective numberplate gazing has been very helpful. Almost certainly No.60132 in 1949 before November then, taking account of the livery; from the angle of the sun I'd say it looks like it has to be between April and September.

I'll be writing soon to the gentleman who's allowed me to copy these photos of his, providing him with an update on our researches - including the still unsolved mystery of the device on the up main line alongside 60533's wheels. It's just possible that he might know what it was! I'll also ask if he's OK with me sharing his tale of the day C1 No.2810 came to grief.

[strang steel]

Back to Grantham!

I have been looking at my Keith Pirt books (starting off with the Eastern & North Eastern Region, and Eastern and Midland Region books from the Steam Portfolio series); and I have some questions:



2) I have noticed in many of the shots in the late 1950s and early 1960s there are still some blood/custard (crimson/cream - Please can someone tell me what the BR(E) colours are). How common was this at that time?


Ian

This period (1958-61) is a bit of a minefield for liveries and variations and the only help that I can give has come from watching videos and close inspection of photographs as I was at primary school then and dont remember much detail.

The change from crimson and cream to maroon was quite rapid in those years, due partly to the fact that a lot of main line stock in cr/crm was downgraded to secondary duties and replaced by new Mk1 coaches already in maroon.

In 1958 it would seem that quite a high percentage (maybe 65-70%) were still cr/crm but by 1960 that figure was down to 10% or so, and 1961 there was only the odd coach in the old colours on main line trains.

On secondary services, the change was somewhat less noticeable but many of them went over to dmu operation and movie cameras were not focused on these services anything like as much.

Then you have the V2s repainted from black to green, double chimneys appearing on many more pacifics, followed by the German smoke deflectors on the A3s in the early 1960s, just to complicate things even further - and not forgetting the addition of the overhead warning plates from late 1960 onwards.

[workev]

Thanks for the response re liveries; at least I know now to call it crimson and cream. I guess I have always assumed that the change was quicker than actually it was, and also the shuffling of stock in the late 1950s between the LNER designs and BR standards on services still opens up many possibilities for modelling in this period.

Any help on my other questions would be gratefully received..... I have more to come!

Ian

[strang steel]

I can't really help on the other points you raise, even the Boston parcels at that time. My parents did not move to next to that line for another 3 years and I remember very few parcels trains, although there was one late in the afternoon which was usually in the charge of a 350hp diesel shunter.

I suspect that is because once the class 114 dmus had been introduced, 12t vans and or GUVs/CCTs were attached to the rear of these units at Grantham for the run to Boston (and probably Lincoln as well).

I have a feeling that for a short time the Peterborough stopping service was booked for one of Grantham's B12s. I suspect I have read this in passing, but cant remember where. There are a couple of photos of them working this train in the Tallington/Essendine area.

However, I have no concrete evidence for this.

[BURTREEFORD]

I may be able to help with Grantham Bookstall as my dad was manager there until 1967 and i used to spend many happy hours there watching and recording the locos
has anyone got any photos ?
ian

[strang steel]

If you go back to the bottom of page 2 of this rather large thread, you will find a couple of the bookstall.

[Andy W]

Parcels to Boston - I don't know if this helps but here goes.

My grandfathers house was on the Sleaford Road in Boston, not long after you went over Wyberton crossing. Looking out the upstairs window at the back of his house, across the cauli field (now a housing estate) I used to see a parcels train in the early to mid 60's going into Boston and it was either hauled by a B1 or Ivatt 4MT or, later, a Brush 2. I wasn't old enough to recognise the vans but they were a mixture of bogie, four and six wheelers. I think it used to be around 4-6 vehicles usually but I wouldn't have seen it all year.

There was quite a bit of attached van traffic on the DMUs and, if it was for Boston, the way they were dealt with at Boston was that the 03 station pilot would be sitting under the water tower on the downside and when the DMU arrived it would hook onto the vans and then they would be transfered to the upside for unloading. I remember seeing 2 PMVs full of RAF kitbags and boxes coming off one day, probably on their way to Coningsby. If nothing much was about on the up, unloading (or loading) would take place on the upside platform itself, rather than in the dock. I got my first drive on D5624 in 1970 when it was doing the afternoon parcels trip into Boston - I did half the length of the up platform!

Summer Saturday trains to Skeg often were multiple formations of 2 cars with one or two vans attached for luggage. Although this a bit off-piste, I remember travelling on a crowded six car from Grantham in the 1970's with a PMV on the back. I was sitting on my case in the guards compartment with the boxes of day old chicks cheeping away on one side, boxes of Zwetloot flowers on the other and in front of me a prisoner and escort (handcuffed to each other) for Freiston. The unit was a Cravens and I was getting the full benefit from them having their exhaust pipes running up through the inside of the van! Never have I been so glad to get out of a train at Boston.

[workev]

Andy,

I think that the additon of parcels vans to DMU's was probably phased in during the early 1960s, but the parcels I am referring to in the 56/57 timetable are definitely parcels trains in their own right, feeding from and to workings from London.

As always, trying to find photos of these secondary workings rather than the glamourous pacifics on express workings requires lots of detective work.

I assume that the working would have nominally been one of the B1s, but possibly other types could be seen on these trains, including locos from Boston shed. K1's and K3's may have worked the trains too I guess, plus the odd pacific!

Ian

[strang steel]

Parcels to Boston - I don't know if this helps but here goes.

My grandfathers house was on the Sleaford Road in Boston, not long after you went over Wyberton crossing. Looking out the upstairs window at the back of his house, across the cauli field (now a housing estate) I used to see a parcels train in the early to mid 60's going into Boston and it was either hauled by a B1 or Ivatt 4MT or, later, a Brush 2. I wasn't old enough to recognise the vans but they were a mixture of bogie, four and six wheelers. I think it used to be around 4-6 vehicles usually but I wouldn't have seen it all year.

Thanks for that Andy. I am glad that you can remember a parcels on the Sleaford line because I was beginning to think it was strange that I could not in the early 1960s, but now I can blame my useless memory.

I do remember the occasional failure of one of the dmus in the mid 60s, and the substitute being a Brush 2 and a BSK which must have been kept in a siding somewhere out of the way.

However, I dont know what they did with the train at the Grantham end, because it must have caused some extra shunting movements to release the diesel, assuming it arrived in the usual bay. Maybe the BSK returned to Boston on the parcels if there was another dmu to do the return trip?

[60129 GUY MANNERING]

Quote:- However, I dont know what they did with the train at the Grantham end, because it must have caused some extra shunting movements to release the diesel, assuming it arrived in the usual bay. Maybe the BSK returned to Boston on the parcels if there was another dmu to do the return trip? :Qoute

Perhaps it arrived in Platform 2 and was pushed back through Platform 3 to go towards the Nottingham line as for Express Locomotives coming off an Up train and going on shed,but just a suggestion. This did happen with DMU's on occassions.
Regards.

[61070]

I may be able to help with Grantham Bookstall as my dad was manager there until 1967 and i used to spend many happy hours there watching and recording the locos
has anyone got any photos ?
ian

Hello Burtreeford,
Thank you very much for your interest. In case you weren't aware many of the photos on this thread were taken by my father when he and I used to visit Grantham station to watch the trains and take photographs.
Is that your Dad in the photos of the bookstall near the bottom of page 2: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=3429&start=15 ?
There's also a photo of the bookstall on page 10, again near the bottom (posted 27.May 2010 at 11:03pm): viewtopic.php?f=15&t=3429&start=135
If it is him please let me know (either via the forum or by private mail - PM) because I have at least one other photo of the same man, with a group of station staff.
It would be really good if you could share some of your recollections of the bookstall here.
Looking forward to hearing from you.

61070

[strang steel]

Perhaps it arrived in Platform 2 and was pushed back through Platform 3 to go towards the Nottingham line as for Express Locomotives coming off an Up train and going on shed,but just a suggestion. This did happen with DMU's on occassions.
Regards.

This is an interesting thought, because in the harsh winter of 1962/3, during a week or two in January 63, the class 114s were replaced by Ivatt 4MTs hauling 3 or 4 non corridor coaches. I did not see them through the day because I was at school but they were certainly on the early morning and late afternoon Grantham-Boston services.

It was like a swansong of local steam services, presumably because of frozen diesel engines in the dmus. I doubt that anyone would have been trainspotting at Grantham in those icy conditions, but it would be fascinating to know how they coped with this change back to steam.

I have never seen any photos, and the dmus soon returned but I have no idea if the Grantham-Lincoln services had a similar temporary change back to steam. I remember wishing that I was a few years older and commuted to Grantham for work just so that I could have ridden on the service. The carriages must have been dragged out of sidings somewhere, and I remember that they were almost white with frost, including the windows.

I dont know if the steam heating was working well enough to ever get the inside temperatures up to a comfortable figure.

[ROY@34F]

This is an interesting thought, because in the harsh winter of 1962/3, during a week or two in January 63, the class 114s were replaced by Ivatt 4MTs hauling 3 or 4 non corridor coaches. I did not see them through the day because I was at school but they were certainly on the early morning and late afternoon Grantham-Boston services.

It was like a swansong of local steam services, presumably because of frozen diesel engines in the dmus. I doubt that anyone would have been trainspotting at Grantham in those icy conditions, but it would be fascinating to know how they coped with this change back to steam.

I have never seen any photos, and the dmus soon returned but I have no idea if the Grantham-Lincoln services had a similar temporary change back to steam. I remember wishing that I was a few years older and commuted to Grantham for work just so that I could have ridden on the service. The carriages must have been dragged out of sidings somewhere, and I remember that they were almost white with frost, including the windows.

I dont know if the steam heating was working well enough to ever get the inside temperatures up to a comfortable figure.[/quote]

Re.above discussion: On Apr.3 and 4 1963,in my diary,I was on at 2.00 pm.with a prepared Grantham engine,61392 from Grantham to Lincoln-Retford-Lincoln-Grantham.As the fireman,I stayed with the engine all the time,but had 4 different drivers each day.Surely the bad weather was over by then ,so I suspect there were still teething problems with the dmus..
I certainly remember that winter.We even had fires lit on the ground adjacent to the injectors on the engines in the loco at Grantham.'Don't remember the temperature,but it was quite severe.
Regards , Roy.

[61070]

Thanks for that information from your diary Roy. Much store is set by 'official' records, and quite rightly so, but we don't always acknowledge that many footplatemen kept a detailed records of their daily duties (I've come across this in other careers too, marine engineering being one of them). Was this something firemen and drivers did on their own account - or was it required, or maybe recommended, by 'the company'? Were young cleaners advised by their foreman that it would be a good idea to get hold of a notebook and keep a record - or was it something they picked up from their drivers once they became firemen? Was it possibly a means of recording hours and distances worked so that the weekly pay packet could be checked? Was the evidence useful when opportunities for promotion came along , or was this always done on the basis of seniority? Sorry, lots of questions there. I just realised that I hadn't really thought about why this tradition came about.

[manna]

G'Day Gents

Sorry to move away from Grantham for a short while, I remember the winter of 62/63 quite well even though I was at school, had to walk about a mile and a half, and school was never cancelled, at the weekends we would go up to Alexandra Palace (Wood Green ) taking our toboggans with us, living where we did we had to pass Wood Green station, hardly saw a diesel, but plenty of steam about, from the top of the hill I had a great view of the ECML between Hornsey and Wood Green, and steamer after steamer would pass along that stretch of line, with great plumes of steam and smoke being thrown into the freezing cold air, plenty of steam shunters at Bounds Green CS and Ferme Park, What a sight.

manna